• Smart meter for economy 7

    Hi

    I have been contacted by the smart meter installation contractor to install my smart meter but when I have told them I got a storage they said the smart meter doesn't support the economy 7 option and will not switch on the storage heaters during the night. So the cancel my appointment.
    Is it possible to have a smart meter for economy 7?
    And can you advise me how to get it.
    0
  • Hi

    I have been contacted by the smart meter installation contractor to install my smart meter but when I have told them I got a storage they said the smart meter doesn't support the economy 7 option and will not switch on the storage heaters during the night. So the cancel my appointment.
    Is it possible to have a smart meter for economy 7?
    And can you advise me how to get it.


  • Hey @Igueh

    Currently SMETS 2 meters can't be fitted if you have storage heaters, because as you said they wouldn't be switched on.

    This is something that's looking to be introduced in the future
    0
  • Hey @Igueh

    Currently SMETS 2 meters can't be fitted if you have storage heaters, because as you said they wouldn't be switched on.

    This is something that's looking to be introduced in the future


  • hi Igueh
    how are your storage heaters timed at the moment? Is there a separate timer.
    Are you sure you are on an E7 tariff, not on E10?
    Economy 7 switches at a preset time, so my thinking is if you have a separate timer, there is no reason a smets2 meter won't work, but/and in any event the day and night rates with PP are the same so it makes no difference anyway.
    The subtlety here is that the meter does not switch on the heaters, it only allows the timers to switch the heaters when the night rate is on. If that is the case it's a simple matter of wiring the heaters directly to the meter out.
    I can't see why that would be a problem.
    We need more specific technical information from PP as to why this is an issue. The only things I can think of is were you to change back to a normal meter, in theory your heaters could be switched on during the day, timer permitting, AND the meter installers remit does not extend to rewiring the feed to your heaters.
    This E7 business with SM's is a mess lets have some real detailed tech info as to what the issues are please?
    ​@marc @Nataly we need a detailed FAQ on the why's and wherefores of E7 and smart metering - I know there have been posts but this is still very unclear.
    If it is merely a case of the poster having the wiring of his heaters changed to come from the main meter out rather than a switched E7 feed he should be told why and how to get that done, even if the option is that he has to get his own electrician to do it.
    If there is some other technical reason both I and many others would like to know more please?

    I have a vested interest in this as about to switch a neighbour, awaiting a meter change and who is in a similar situation.
    late edit: idea posted
    Quote Originally Posted by Igueh View Post
    Hi

    I have been contacted by the smart meter installation contractor to install my smart meter but when I have told them I got a storage they said the smart meter doesn't support the economy 7 option and will not switch on the storage heaters during the night. So the cancel my appointment.
    Is it possible to have a smart meter for economy 7?
    And can you advise me how to get it.
    Last edited by woz; 15-07-19 at 17:40.
    0
  • hi Igueh
    how are your storage heaters timed at the moment? Is there a separate timer.
    Are you sure you are on an E7 tariff, not on E10?
    Economy 7 switches at a preset time, so my thinking is if you have a separate timer, there is no reason a smets2 meter won't work, but/and in any event the day and night rates with PP are the same so it makes no difference anyway.
    The subtlety here is that the meter does not switch on the heaters, it only allows the timers to switch the heaters when the night rate is on. If that is the case it's a simple matter of wiring the heaters directly to the meter out.
    I can't see why that would be a problem.
    We need more specific technical information from PP as to why this is an issue. The only things I can think of is were you to change back to a normal meter, in theory your heaters could be switched on during the day, timer permitting, AND the meter installers remit does not extend to rewiring the feed to your heaters.
    This E7 business with SM's is a mess lets have some real detailed tech info as to what the issues are please?
    ​@marc @Nataly we need a detailed FAQ on the why's and wherefores of E7 and smart metering - I know there have been posts but this is still very unclear.
    If it is merely a case of the poster having the wiring of his heaters changed to come from the main meter out rather than a switched E7 feed he should be told why and how to get that done, even if the option is that he has to get his own electrician to do it.
    If there is some other technical reason both I and many others would like to know more please?

    I have a vested interest in this as about to switch a neighbour, awaiting a meter change and who is in a similar situation.
    late edit: idea posted
    Quote Originally Posted by Igueh View Post
    Hi

    I have been contacted by the smart meter installation contractor to install my smart meter but when I have told them I got a storage they said the smart meter doesn't support the economy 7 option and will not switch on the storage heaters during the night. So the cancel my appointment.
    Is it possible to have a smart meter for economy 7?
    And can you advise me how to get it.


  • Hey @woz @Igueh

    Our head of smart meters touched on this in his Q+A replies,

    "Storage heaters have historically been an issue, and even with SMETS2 the meter manufacturers have prioritised single rate meters and Economy 7 (without storage). There are some SMETS2 meters that have been made for this - they can turn a switch on/off to work storage heaters - but they’ve not really been tested yet. If you’re not using your storage heaters, then you could get them disconnected, of course."

    Currently a SMETS2 meter that functions with storage heaters is unavailable to the industry, so no suppliers are able to do this.

    A SMETS2 meter that functions with storage heaters should become available from the start of next year, at which point we'll look to trial them to work out any issues and then install them for our Members who use storage heaters

    With the SMETS2 roll-out the industry and meter manufacturer focus has been on single rate and E7 meters, partly as this covers the majority of UK households.
    There's a specific meter required for the 5th terminal, if the current SMETS2 meter was installed then there's not the capability to open/close a 'switch' to get the storage heaters (or underfloor heating etc.) to turn on-off. This would mean the storage heaters would be turned either off or on continuously.

    We'll of course be looking to install SMETS2 meters in properties with storage heaters once this option becomes available to the industry.
    Last edited by Nataly; 17-07-19 at 13:15. Reason: extra info added
    1
  • Hey @woz @Igueh

    Our head of smart meters touched on this in his Q+A replies,

    "Storage heaters have historically been an issue, and even with SMETS2 the meter manufacturers have prioritised single rate meters and Economy 7 (without storage). There are some SMETS2 meters that have been made for this - they can turn a switch on/off to work storage heaters - but they’ve not really been tested yet. If you’re not using your storage heaters, then you could get them disconnected, of course."

    Currently a SMETS2 meter that functions with storage heaters is unavailable to the industry, so no suppliers are able to do this.

    A SMETS2 meter that functions with storage heaters should become available from the start of next year, at which point we'll look to trial them to work out any issues and then install them for our Members who use storage heaters

    With the SMETS2 roll-out the industry and meter manufacturer focus has been on single rate and E7 meters, partly as this covers the majority of UK households.
    There's a specific meter required for the 5th terminal, if the current SMETS2 meter was installed then there's not the capability to open/close a 'switch' to get the storage heaters (or underfloor heating etc.) to turn on-off. This would mean the storage heaters would be turned either off or on continuously.

    We'll of course be looking to install SMETS2 meters in properties with storage heaters once this option becomes available to the industry.


  • If the timing is done by a separate time switch and not the meter then I can see no reason why a SMETS2 meter can't simply be substituted.
    I agree if the meter is actually doing the heater switching it would be an issue, but there are lots of installations where that isn't the case. where the storage heaters will come on whenever the time clock tells them to do so.
    As I posted previously, the timing of the meter and the time clock are independent, the time clock will (should!) continue to time whatever the meter is doing.
    and a later edit...(with tail between legs at least a bit..)
    I'd forgotten ...The intention is to (unnecessarily in many cases) remove existing time clocks when Smets2 are fitted (why when it's working perfectly well?) and for the meter to do the timing/switching, which it can't yet do (that fact in itself beggars belief)so.. that explains it then...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nataly View Post
    Hey @woz @Igueh

    Our head of smart meters touched on this in his Q+A replies,

    "Storage heaters have historically been an issue, and even with SMETS2 the meter manufacturers have prioritised single rate meters and Economy 7 (without storage). There are some SMETS2 meters that have been made for this - they can turn a switch on/off to work storage heaters - but they’ve not really been tested yet. If you’re not using your storage heaters, then you could get them disconnected, of course."

    Currently a SMETS2 meter that functions with storage heaters is unavailable to the industry, so no suppliers are able to do this.

    A SMETS2 meter that functions with storage heaters should become available from the start of next year, at which point we'll look to trial them to work out any issues and then install them for our Members who use storage heaters

    With the SMETS2 roll-out the industry and meter manufacturer focus has been on single rate and E7 meters, partly as this covers the majority of UK households.
    There's a specific meter required for the 5th terminal, if the current SMETS2 meter was installed then there's not the capability to open/close a 'switch' to get the storage heaters (or underfloor heating etc.) to turn on-off. This would mean the storage heaters would be turned either off or on continuously.

    We'll of course be looking to install SMETS2 meters in properties with storage heaters once this option becomes available to the industry.
    Last edited by woz; 17-07-19 at 15:56.
    0
  • If the timing is done by a separate time switch and not the meter then I can see no reason why a SMETS2 meter can't simply be substituted.
    I agree if the meter is actually doing the heater switching it would be an issue, but there are lots of installations where that isn't the case. where the storage heaters will come on whenever the time clock tells them to do so.
    As I posted previously, the timing of the meter and the time clock are independent, the time clock will (should!) continue to time whatever the meter is doing.
    and a later edit...(with tail between legs at least a bit..)
    I'd forgotten ...The intention is to (unnecessarily in many cases) remove existing time clocks when Smets2 are fitted (why when it's working perfectly well?) and for the meter to do the timing/switching, which it can't yet do (that fact in itself beggars belief)so.. that explains it then...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nataly View Post
    Hey @woz @Igueh

    Our head of smart meters touched on this in his Q+A replies,

    "Storage heaters have historically been an issue, and even with SMETS2 the meter manufacturers have prioritised single rate meters and Economy 7 (without storage). There are some SMETS2 meters that have been made for this - they can turn a switch on/off to work storage heaters - but they’ve not really been tested yet. If you’re not using your storage heaters, then you could get them disconnected, of course."

    Currently a SMETS2 meter that functions with storage heaters is unavailable to the industry, so no suppliers are able to do this.

    A SMETS2 meter that functions with storage heaters should become available from the start of next year, at which point we'll look to trial them to work out any issues and then install them for our Members who use storage heaters

    With the SMETS2 roll-out the industry and meter manufacturer focus has been on single rate and E7 meters, partly as this covers the majority of UK households.
    There's a specific meter required for the 5th terminal, if the current SMETS2 meter was installed then there's not the capability to open/close a 'switch' to get the storage heaters (or underfloor heating etc.) to turn on-off. This would mean the storage heaters would be turned either off or on continuously.

    We'll of course be looking to install SMETS2 meters in properties with storage heaters once this option becomes available to the industry.


  • Hi just had magnum come to install smart meter but they could not install as I have an economy 7 meter. Two point to make here 1 according to installer there are economy 7 smart meters available PP says no.
    And 2 why did PP book an appointment for a smart meter that can’t be fitted to an economy 7 set up(as there are 5 wires from an economy 7 set up) when they should know I have an economy 7 set up because I give them two reading ever month.
    0
  • Hi just had magnum come to install smart meter but they could not install as I have an economy 7 meter. Two point to make here 1 according to installer there are economy 7 smart meters available PP says no.
    And 2 why did PP book an appointment for a smart meter that can’t be fitted to an economy 7 set up(as there are 5 wires from an economy 7 set up) when they should know I have an economy 7 set up because I give them two reading ever month.


  • Hi john.
    Weird indeed. The pre install phone call was meant to find these things out. Do you have storage heaters or under floor heating or some other old school heating system working or not ?
    0
  • Hi john.
    Weird indeed. The pre install phone call was meant to find these things out. Do you have storage heaters or under floor heating or some other old school heating system working or not ?


  • hi Johnxholland
    This whole E7 thing is a mess, It's been queried and we are awaiting more info.
    My understanding (which could be wrong, I'm awaiting clarification) is where the existing dumb meter has for example a radio teleswitch it does have 5 wires, but the extra wire is just to tell the meter that it's either at low or high rate. All circuits are permanently energised.
    The answer to the questions previously asked about this were that the SM would be programmed to do the timing, thus the meter only needs 2 in and 2 out (4 wires).
    This changes where there is a separate feed for storage heaters which is only energised at low rate.


    Quote Originally Posted by Johnxholland View Post
    Hi just had magnum come to install smart meter but they could not install as I have an economy 7 meter. Two point to make here 1 according to installer there are economy 7 smart meters available PP says no.
    And 2 why did PP book an appointment for a smart meter that can’t be fitted to an economy 7 set up(as there are 5 wires from an economy 7 set up) when they should know I have an economy 7 set up because I give them two reading ever month.
    1
  • hi Johnxholland
    This whole E7 thing is a mess, It's been queried and we are awaiting more info.
    My understanding (which could be wrong, I'm awaiting clarification) is where the existing dumb meter has for example a radio teleswitch it does have 5 wires, but the extra wire is just to tell the meter that it's either at low or high rate. All circuits are permanently energised.
    The answer to the questions previously asked about this were that the SM would be programmed to do the timing, thus the meter only needs 2 in and 2 out (4 wires).
    This changes where there is a separate feed for storage heaters which is only energised at low rate.


    Quote Originally Posted by Johnxholland View Post
    Hi just had magnum come to install smart meter but they could not install as I have an economy 7 meter. Two point to make here 1 according to installer there are economy 7 smart meters available PP says no.
    And 2 why did PP book an appointment for a smart meter that can’t be fitted to an economy 7 set up(as there are 5 wires from an economy 7 set up) when they should know I have an economy 7 set up because I give them two reading ever month.