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  • Smart meters data - interesting article

    This has some interesting information about smart meter data and the arguments about its use. What do people think?

    https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...eter-data.html
    Tap below to see the best answer
    0
  • This has some interesting information about smart meter data and the arguments about its use. What do people think?

    https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...eter-data.html
    Tap below to see the best answer


  • This is a bit concerning...especially the bit about our data being made available to 3rd parties.
    I hope this is not happening now to those of us who are in the trial.
    I can't remember giving my permission.

    Marc/Nataly?
    Last edited by Angelabikerbabe; 13-05-19 at 05:59.
    0
  • This is a bit concerning...especially the bit about our data being made available to 3rd parties.
    I hope this is not happening now to those of us who are in the trial.
    I can't remember giving my permission.

    Marc/Nataly?


  • Quote Originally Posted by Angelabikerbabe View Post
    This is a bit concerning...especially the bit about our data being made available to 3rd parties.
    I hope this is not happening now to those of us who are in the trial.
    I can't remember giving my permission.

    Marc/Nataly?
    Hi @Angelabikerbabe
    Third parties would only include bodies such as Ofgem, and even then the data wouldn't be specific to individuals. It's data such as 'how many members do you have with smart meters' which we have to report.
    The kind of third party which would want an individual's data is a law enforcement agency. I imagine there would be a court order for that issued to us. Perhaps a crime agency (as I believe the police are called nowadays!) who believed some naughty person was growing dodgy weeds in their basement and might be interested in electricity usage.
    Community Manager - Pure Planet

    4
  • Quote Originally Posted by Angelabikerbabe View Post
    This is a bit concerning...especially the bit about our data being made available to 3rd parties.
    I hope this is not happening now to those of us who are in the trial.
    I can't remember giving my permission.

    Marc/Nataly?
    Hi @Angelabikerbabe
    Third parties would only include bodies such as Ofgem, and even then the data wouldn't be specific to individuals. It's data such as 'how many members do you have with smart meters' which we have to report.
    The kind of third party which would want an individual's data is a law enforcement agency. I imagine there would be a court order for that issued to us. Perhaps a crime agency (as I believe the police are called nowadays!) who believed some naughty person was growing dodgy weeds in their basement and might be interested in electricity usage.
    Community Manager - Pure Planet



  • Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Hi @Angelabikerbabe
    Third parties would only include bodies such as Ofgem, and even then the data wouldn't be specific to individuals. It's data such as 'how many members do you have with smart meters' which we have to report.
    The kind of third party which would want an individual's data is a law enforcement agency. I imagine there would be a court order for that issued to us. Perhaps a crime agency (as I believe the police are called nowadays!) who believed some naughty person was growing dodgy weeds in their basement and might be interested in electricity usage.
    Hi @Marc, the point about naughty persons growing dodgy weeds in the basement wouldn't apply. From the numerous police programs I have watched these persons bypass the meter anyway, so that information wouldn't be available
    Last edited by Duppy; 13-05-19 at 09:22.
    0
  • Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Hi @Angelabikerbabe
    Third parties would only include bodies such as Ofgem, and even then the data wouldn't be specific to individuals. It's data such as 'how many members do you have with smart meters' which we have to report.
    The kind of third party which would want an individual's data is a law enforcement agency. I imagine there would be a court order for that issued to us. Perhaps a crime agency (as I believe the police are called nowadays!) who believed some naughty person was growing dodgy weeds in their basement and might be interested in electricity usage.
    Hi @Marc, the point about naughty persons growing dodgy weeds in the basement wouldn't apply. From the numerous police programs I have watched these persons bypass the meter anyway, so that information wouldn't be available


  • Quote Originally Posted by Duppy View Post
    Hi @Marc, the point about naughty persons growing dodgy weeds in the basement wouldn't apply. From the numerous police programs I have watched these persons bypass the meter anyway, so that information wouldn't be available
    You're probably right @Duppy I've no idea! It's just an example of the kind of 3rd party who can request info about smart meter use. Maybe it would fall under a fraud agency (depends on the number of plants I suppose!)
    Community Manager - Pure Planet

    1
  • Quote Originally Posted by Duppy View Post
    Hi @Marc, the point about naughty persons growing dodgy weeds in the basement wouldn't apply. From the numerous police programs I have watched these persons bypass the meter anyway, so that information wouldn't be available
    You're probably right @Duppy I've no idea! It's just an example of the kind of 3rd party who can request info about smart meter use. Maybe it would fall under a fraud agency (depends on the number of plants I suppose!)
    Community Manager - Pure Planet



  • Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Hi @Angelabikerbabe
    Third parties would only include bodies such as Ofgem, and even then the data wouldn't be specific to individuals. It's data such as 'how many members do you have with smart meters' which we have to report.
    The kind of third party which would want an individual's data is a law enforcement agency. I imagine there would be a court order for that issued to us. Perhaps a crime agency (as I believe the police are called nowadays!) who believed some naughty person was growing dodgy weeds in their basement and might be interested in electricity usage.
    Thanks Marc
    3
  • Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Hi @Angelabikerbabe
    Third parties would only include bodies such as Ofgem, and even then the data wouldn't be specific to individuals. It's data such as 'how many members do you have with smart meters' which we have to report.
    The kind of third party which would want an individual's data is a law enforcement agency. I imagine there would be a court order for that issued to us. Perhaps a crime agency (as I believe the police are called nowadays!) who believed some naughty person was growing dodgy weeds in their basement and might be interested in electricity usage.
    Thanks Marc


  • I Just don't see the need for a smart metre.
    But that's me and there are good and specific reasons to have one installed.

    Another piece of equipment that could fail.
    Smets 1 was a failed industry strategy and smets 2 is far from proven on several fronts.

    I like tech, but more home gadgets with ongoing software updates, linked to security back door vulnerability does not appeal until the evidence stacks up.
    Best to sit back and watch!
    Last edited by Strutt G; 13-05-19 at 08:43.
    2
  • I Just don't see the need for a smart metre.
    But that's me and there are good and specific reasons to have one installed.

    Another piece of equipment that could fail.
    Smets 1 was a failed industry strategy and smets 2 is far from proven on several fronts.

    I like tech, but more home gadgets with ongoing software updates, linked to security back door vulnerability does not appeal until the evidence stacks up.
    Best to sit back and watch!


  • This does seem to be more of a scare story, at the end of the day what can any one find out from my meter?
    Name, address, size of my bill.
    When the day arrives where i swipe my credit card through the meter in order to pay the bill or top up my credit then yes i would be worried. Nothing yet available that google cannot already tell anybody about me.
    If you really want to worry how about people getting your info. your mortgage details what bank you owe the money too, name address and all property details. For a mere £3 from land registry website.
    Look up your posh neighbours and see how big a hole debt wise they are in.
    1
  • This does seem to be more of a scare story, at the end of the day what can any one find out from my meter?
    Name, address, size of my bill.
    When the day arrives where i swipe my credit card through the meter in order to pay the bill or top up my credit then yes i would be worried. Nothing yet available that google cannot already tell anybody about me.
    If you really want to worry how about people getting your info. your mortgage details what bank you owe the money too, name address and all property details. For a mere £3 from land registry website.
    Look up your posh neighbours and see how big a hole debt wise they are in.


  • There should be an opt-in with the DCC meaning you can separately give your existing supplier permission to access the data but unless you agree all other 3rd parties are automatically excluded.
    (is this possible? A supplier registered with the DCC trawling the data looking for high energy users and cherry-picking them?)
    1
  • There should be an opt-in with the DCC meaning you can separately give your existing supplier permission to access the data but unless you agree all other 3rd parties are automatically excluded.
    (is this possible? A supplier registered with the DCC trawling the data looking for high energy users and cherry-picking them?)


  • Under GDPR you can opt out of things which aren't integral to the service being provided. Sharing data with regulators, crime agencies and other mandatory third parties are requirements that all service providers must comply with. Thus, you would be unable to opt out regardless of the energy provider you are signed up with.
    2
  • Under GDPR you can opt out of things which aren't integral to the service being provided. Sharing data with regulators, crime agencies and other mandatory third parties are requirements that all service providers must comply with. Thus, you would be unable to opt out regardless of the energy provider you are signed up with.


  • Best Answer

    I decided to invest in a smart meter that’s independent from any energy supplier which gives me all the benefits of a smart meter without having concerns about what third parties do with the data. The devices connect wirelessly to a gateway hooked up to my router. It gives me real time readings and historical consumption data, via an app and a web portal with nice graphs, from where I can also download the data hourly or per day and import into my spreadsheets, set budget alerts and get recommendations on better tariffs based on my consumption. Weekly and monthly reports by email too. I know the data is processed only for the purpose of delivering the reports and to receive tariff comparisons. I paid a one-off £70 which works out £7 per year over the estimated 10 year battery life... and no worries about data being shared with third parties or compatibility when I switch suppliers (which I am not planning because PP is great!! Also, my smart meter tariff comparison tool does show a few cheaper plans, but the saving is not enough to make me want to switch.) happy days
    5
  • I decided to invest in a smart meter that’s independent from any energy supplier which gives me all the benefits of a smart meter without having concerns about what third parties do with the data. The devices connect wirelessly to a gateway hooked up to my router. It gives me real time readings and historical consumption data, via an app and a web portal with nice graphs, from where I can also download the data hourly or per day and import into my spreadsheets, set budget alerts and get recommendations on better tariffs based on my consumption. Weekly and monthly reports by email too. I know the data is processed only for the purpose of delivering the reports and to receive tariff comparisons. I paid a one-off £70 which works out £7 per year over the estimated 10 year battery life... and no worries about data being shared with third parties or compatibility when I switch suppliers (which I am not planning because PP is great!! Also, my smart meter tariff comparison tool does show a few cheaper plans, but the saving is not enough to make me want to switch.) happy days


  • hi Dutch
    Are you able to post any more info on what you've fitted? I'm sure there are quite a few in the community who would be interested.

    Quote Originally Posted by DutchCaerleon View Post
    I decided to invest in a smart meter that’s independent from any energy supplier which gives me all the benefits of a smart meter without having concerns about what third parties do with the data. The devices connect wirelessly to a gateway hooked up to my router. It gives me real time readings and historical consumption data, via an app and a web portal with nice graphs, from where I can also download the data hourly or per day and import into my spreadsheets, set budget alerts and get recommendations on better tariffs based on my consumption. Weekly and monthly reports by email too. I know the data is processed only for the purpose of delivering the reports and to receive tariff comparisons. I paid a one-off £70 which works out £7 per year over the estimated 10 year battery life... and no worries about data being shared with third parties or compatibility when I switch suppliers (which I am not planning because PP is great!! Also, my smart meter tariff comparison tool does show a few cheaper plans, but the saving is not enough to make me want to switch.) happy days
    2
  • hi Dutch
    Are you able to post any more info on what you've fitted? I'm sure there are quite a few in the community who would be interested.

    Quote Originally Posted by DutchCaerleon View Post
    I decided to invest in a smart meter that’s independent from any energy supplier which gives me all the benefits of a smart meter without having concerns about what third parties do with the data. The devices connect wirelessly to a gateway hooked up to my router. It gives me real time readings and historical consumption data, via an app and a web portal with nice graphs, from where I can also download the data hourly or per day and import into my spreadsheets, set budget alerts and get recommendations on better tariffs based on my consumption. Weekly and monthly reports by email too. I know the data is processed only for the purpose of delivering the reports and to receive tariff comparisons. I paid a one-off £70 which works out £7 per year over the estimated 10 year battery life... and no worries about data being shared with third parties or compatibility when I switch suppliers (which I am not planning because PP is great!! Also, my smart meter tariff comparison tool does show a few cheaper plans, but the saving is not enough to make me want to switch.) happy days


  • Quote Originally Posted by woz View Post
    hi Dutch Are you able to post any more info on what you've fitted? I'm sure there are quite a few in the community who would be interested. ​
    Hi Woz,
    sure. The smart monitor I decided on is called Loop Energy Saver, only available from https://amzn.to/2LFJXIM . I was looking for something that did both gas and electric reporting via app/web, and I wanted to be able to extract the data in a format for my spreadsheet. There are a few monitors on the market, but I liked the features Loop Energy offers, and the company has implied potentially adding IFTTT integration and API as part of a product roadmap and is interested in user feedback on new features. I like that it integrates with uswitch and monitors the market for the best energy deals. When PP changed its gas unit rate, Loop Energy instantly updated my tariff details. You can buy it just for gas or just electricity, but I have bought both monitors. It doesn’t work with solar.

    Installation was straightforward, and the instructions are very clear. The gateway plugs in with an Ethernet cable in your router and has a power adapter; the two monitors communicate wirelessly with the gateway and have a 10 year non-replaceable battery. The Electricity monitor works with the standard clamp, and gas consumption is measured by monitoring rotations on my R5 meter, so you fit a sensor on the rotating clock. I had to adjust the sensor once to improve accuracy, and customer services was fast and very helpful with accurate instructions. The deviation is insignificant.

    It’s worth pointing out that the electricity device is a monitor not a meter, hence it will allow tracking your usage, but does not replace any supplier fitted meter readings. Installed accuracy can vary as the device does not measure voltage or power factor. I remember reading that only a monitoring device with a sensor that records the electric meter flashes can mimics meter readings; the Look Energy device uses a clamp.

    Anyway, I’m sure you do it anyway, before buying read the Amazon reviews from other users, read the faq on their website loopenergysaver.com but also feel free to ask me any questions and I’ll answer them as best I can.

    Just also wanted to say, while Loop energy saver is good, there are some things that I think they could improve on, such as providing the gas unit readings, the ‘raw’ data. Loop saver offers kwh, CO2 equivalent and £, but it would be good to have the ft3 unit readings as an additional dataset. The other thing is that it would be an improvement to upgrade the electricity monitor with a red flash sensor, so the electricity monitor shows meter readings.


    As someone interested in calculating the energy efficiency of my house (so I can more accurately calculate gas usage over years and offset variations between mild and extremely cold winters) I would also prefer to have a direct heating days dataset option alongside the local ambient weather temperature which loop energy saver uses.


    But I realise those features may be a bit niche. ...
    Attached Images Attached Images         
    0
  • Quote Originally Posted by woz View Post
    hi Dutch Are you able to post any more info on what you've fitted? I'm sure there are quite a few in the community who would be interested. ​
    Hi Woz,
    sure. The smart monitor I decided on is called Loop Energy Saver, only available from https://amzn.to/2LFJXIM . I was looking for something that did both gas and electric reporting via app/web, and I wanted to be able to extract the data in a format for my spreadsheet. There are a few monitors on the market, but I liked the features Loop Energy offers, and the company has implied potentially adding IFTTT integration and API as part of a product roadmap and is interested in user feedback on new features. I like that it integrates with uswitch and monitors the market for the best energy deals. When PP changed its gas unit rate, Loop Energy instantly updated my tariff details. You can buy it just for gas or just electricity, but I have bought both monitors. It doesn’t work with solar.

    Installation was straightforward, and the instructions are very clear. The gateway plugs in with an Ethernet cable in your router and has a power adapter; the two monitors communicate wirelessly with the gateway and have a 10 year non-replaceable battery. The Electricity monitor works with the standard clamp, and gas consumption is measured by monitoring rotations on my R5 meter, so you fit a sensor on the rotating clock. I had to adjust the sensor once to improve accuracy, and customer services was fast and very helpful with accurate instructions. The deviation is insignificant.

    It’s worth pointing out that the electricity device is a monitor not a meter, hence it will allow tracking your usage, but does not replace any supplier fitted meter readings. Installed accuracy can vary as the device does not measure voltage or power factor. I remember reading that only a monitoring device with a sensor that records the electric meter flashes can mimics meter readings; the Look Energy device uses a clamp.

    Anyway, I’m sure you do it anyway, before buying read the Amazon reviews from other users, read the faq on their website loopenergysaver.com but also feel free to ask me any questions and I’ll answer them as best I can.

    Just also wanted to say, while Loop energy saver is good, there are some things that I think they could improve on, such as providing the gas unit readings, the ‘raw’ data. Loop saver offers kwh, CO2 equivalent and £, but it would be good to have the ft3 unit readings as an additional dataset. The other thing is that it would be an improvement to upgrade the electricity monitor with a red flash sensor, so the electricity monitor shows meter readings.


    As someone interested in calculating the energy efficiency of my house (so I can more accurately calculate gas usage over years and offset variations between mild and extremely cold winters) I would also prefer to have a direct heating days dataset option alongside the local ambient weather temperature which loop energy saver uses.


    But I realise those features may be a bit niche. ...
    Attached Images Attached Images         


  • Thanks for the detailed share (or should that be going Dutch)
    1
  • Thanks for the detailed share (or should that be going Dutch)


  • Impressive research DutchCaerleon, I wasn’t aware of independent smart meter availability.
    ​Thank you.
    2
  • Impressive research DutchCaerleon, I wasn’t aware of independent smart meter availability.
    ​Thank you.


  • Hi Dutch, these are monitors not smart meters, so maybe worth their own thread? Clip on electricity monitors are usually pretty inaccurate the lower the consumption. Have you compared the readings you're getting with your meters?

    In my experience, once you've solved your greedy items (lightbulb, old white goods, etc), consumption levels out, becomes entirely predictable and monitoring becomes boring. All you can do then (for free) is keep entering the same data in comparison sites.

    Fit solar panels and a power wall and there'll be no need to shop around!

    - - - Updated - - -

    The article didn't tell me anything I didn't know already, but then as a software engineer I was at a smart metering conference probably a decade ago where it was depressing to see energy industry dinosaurs unable to comprehend where smart metering would take us - dynamic supplier relationships, switching during the night to get a "buy one get one free deal" to charge the car, etc.

    The industry always appeared to struggle with one or two meter readings a year, never mind 48 a day. Hence, a decade on it hasn't happened.

    In ignorance or stupidity the government pushed energy saving as the justification for smart meters, but with led bulbs, A+++ white goods and TVs using 0.1W in standby, we've already made the big savings so there's very little left for IHDs to do in that department.

    As well as the ability to switch suppliers by the hour, I see a future where you'll get a kickback for allowing the generators to store power in your car during the evening before dishing it out to your neighbours during the Corrie ad break. You'll simply set the drive away time you need the car topped up. The only downside with that idea is that if we all do it the cables under the pavement will melt!

    So if a supplier is going to offer me a good deal, it's worth allowing them to read my meter. That said, once I get back to owning a property again, I'll be panelled up and kitted out with batteries and would hope to be a net exporter.
    0
  • Hi Dutch, these are monitors not smart meters, so maybe worth their own thread? Clip on electricity monitors are usually pretty inaccurate the lower the consumption. Have you compared the readings you're getting with your meters?

    In my experience, once you've solved your greedy items (lightbulb, old white goods, etc), consumption levels out, becomes entirely predictable and monitoring becomes boring. All you can do then (for free) is keep entering the same data in comparison sites.

    Fit solar panels and a power wall and there'll be no need to shop around!

    - - - Updated - - -

    The article didn't tell me anything I didn't know already, but then as a software engineer I was at a smart metering conference probably a decade ago where it was depressing to see energy industry dinosaurs unable to comprehend where smart metering would take us - dynamic supplier relationships, switching during the night to get a "buy one get one free deal" to charge the car, etc.

    The industry always appeared to struggle with one or two meter readings a year, never mind 48 a day. Hence, a decade on it hasn't happened.

    In ignorance or stupidity the government pushed energy saving as the justification for smart meters, but with led bulbs, A+++ white goods and TVs using 0.1W in standby, we've already made the big savings so there's very little left for IHDs to do in that department.

    As well as the ability to switch suppliers by the hour, I see a future where you'll get a kickback for allowing the generators to store power in your car during the evening before dishing it out to your neighbours during the Corrie ad break. You'll simply set the drive away time you need the car topped up. The only downside with that idea is that if we all do it the cables under the pavement will melt!

    So if a supplier is going to offer me a good deal, it's worth allowing them to read my meter. That said, once I get back to owning a property again, I'll be panelled up and kitted out with batteries and would hope to be a net exporter.


  • Quote Originally Posted by talldave View Post
    Hi Dutch, these are monitors not smart meters, so maybe worth their own thread? Clip on electricity monitors are usually pretty inaccurate the lower the consumption. Have you compared the readings you're getting with your meters?

    In my experience, once you've solved your greedy items (lightbulb, old white goods, etc), consumption levels out, becomes entirely predictable and monitoring becomes boring. All you can do then (for free) is keep entering the same data in comparison sites.

    Fit solar panels and a power wall and there'll be no need to shop around!

    - - - Updated - - -

    The article didn't tell me anything I didn't know already, but then as a software engineer I was at a smart metering conference probably a decade ago where it was depressing to see energy industry dinosaurs unable to comprehend where smart metering would take us - dynamic supplier relationships, switching during the night to get a "buy one get one free deal" to charge the car, etc.

    The industry always appeared to struggle with one or two meter readings a year, never mind 48 a day. Hence, a decade on it hasn't happened.

    In ignorance or stupidity the government pushed energy saving as the justification for smart meters, but with led bulbs, A+++ white goods and TVs using 0.1W in standby, we've already made the big savings so there's very little left for IHDs to do in that department.

    As well as the ability to switch suppliers by the hour, I see a future where you'll get a kickback for allowing the generators to store power in your car during the evening before dishing it out to your neighbours during the Corrie ad break. You'll simply set the drive away time you need the car topped up. The only downside with that idea is that if we all do it the cables under the pavement will melt!

    So if a supplier is going to offer me a good deal, it's worth allowing them to read my meter. That said, once I get back to owning a property again, I'll be panelled up and kitted out with batteries and would hope to be a net exporter.
    Hi Tall Dave, thanks for this. Yes, you’re right, it’s gas and electricity monitor but a pretty good one, and certainly well enough for my needs.


    As far as I’m concerned, the consumer USP for smart meters is that they create insight, allow greater scrutiny, and if consumers act on that knowledge, some savings could be achieved. This is what Loop energy saver does exceptionally well and much better than some of the smart energy meters I’ve seen. However, it doesn’t do away with the need to give readings to energy suppliers and the current version of the electricity monitor could be improved.


    I did a test on both gas and electricity monitor over one month, and electricity was surprisingly close to the meter reading, and the gas reading was pretty much spot on. I keep monitoring for differences and see if any deviation is more or less constant I will incorporate an offset value. I did look for a system with an optical led pulse sensor, but haven’t found something that comes close to Loop energy saver, apart from the emonpi/ open energy monitoring system which has an optical pulse led sensor. It currently doesn’t do gas monitoring, which is what Loop Energy saver does well and what I definitely want - Plus I didn’t want to take on another open source project. I hope that energy saver as a company will develop their technology and incorporate a led pulse sensor in due course.


    I think innovation is changing many things in life, and you only need to see what sense and neurio are doing in the US in terms of energy monitoring. One energy provider in the U.K. has already introduced a plan that allows customers to benefit from half-hourly pricing and make use of ifttt, which is great if you have an EV and enough electrical appliances/white goods with high energy consumption that can be time-shift to the cheapest pricing.
    0
  • Quote Originally Posted by talldave View Post
    Hi Dutch, these are monitors not smart meters, so maybe worth their own thread? Clip on electricity monitors are usually pretty inaccurate the lower the consumption. Have you compared the readings you're getting with your meters?

    In my experience, once you've solved your greedy items (lightbulb, old white goods, etc), consumption levels out, becomes entirely predictable and monitoring becomes boring. All you can do then (for free) is keep entering the same data in comparison sites.

    Fit solar panels and a power wall and there'll be no need to shop around!

    - - - Updated - - -

    The article didn't tell me anything I didn't know already, but then as a software engineer I was at a smart metering conference probably a decade ago where it was depressing to see energy industry dinosaurs unable to comprehend where smart metering would take us - dynamic supplier relationships, switching during the night to get a "buy one get one free deal" to charge the car, etc.

    The industry always appeared to struggle with one or two meter readings a year, never mind 48 a day. Hence, a decade on it hasn't happened.

    In ignorance or stupidity the government pushed energy saving as the justification for smart meters, but with led bulbs, A+++ white goods and TVs using 0.1W in standby, we've already made the big savings so there's very little left for IHDs to do in that department.

    As well as the ability to switch suppliers by the hour, I see a future where you'll get a kickback for allowing the generators to store power in your car during the evening before dishing it out to your neighbours during the Corrie ad break. You'll simply set the drive away time you need the car topped up. The only downside with that idea is that if we all do it the cables under the pavement will melt!

    So if a supplier is going to offer me a good deal, it's worth allowing them to read my meter. That said, once I get back to owning a property again, I'll be panelled up and kitted out with batteries and would hope to be a net exporter.
    Hi Tall Dave, thanks for this. Yes, you’re right, it’s gas and electricity monitor but a pretty good one, and certainly well enough for my needs.


    As far as I’m concerned, the consumer USP for smart meters is that they create insight, allow greater scrutiny, and if consumers act on that knowledge, some savings could be achieved. This is what Loop energy saver does exceptionally well and much better than some of the smart energy meters I’ve seen. However, it doesn’t do away with the need to give readings to energy suppliers and the current version of the electricity monitor could be improved.


    I did a test on both gas and electricity monitor over one month, and electricity was surprisingly close to the meter reading, and the gas reading was pretty much spot on. I keep monitoring for differences and see if any deviation is more or less constant I will incorporate an offset value. I did look for a system with an optical led pulse sensor, but haven’t found something that comes close to Loop energy saver, apart from the emonpi/ open energy monitoring system which has an optical pulse led sensor. It currently doesn’t do gas monitoring, which is what Loop Energy saver does well and what I definitely want - Plus I didn’t want to take on another open source project. I hope that energy saver as a company will develop their technology and incorporate a led pulse sensor in due course.


    I think innovation is changing many things in life, and you only need to see what sense and neurio are doing in the US in terms of energy monitoring. One energy provider in the U.K. has already introduced a plan that allows customers to benefit from half-hourly pricing and make use of ifttt, which is great if you have an EV and enough electrical appliances/white goods with high energy consumption that can be time-shift to the cheapest pricing.


  • > Hi Dutch, these are monitors not smart meters, so maybe worth their own thread? Clip on electricity monitors
    > are usually pretty inaccurate the lower the consumption. Have you compared the readings you're getting with
    > your meters?

    @Marc
    Feel free to move this to a new thread as suggested.

    @DutchCaerleon
    As Mentioned by @talldave this is an energy monitor rather than a smart meter although that does not make it a bad thing. See - https://www.loopenergysaver.com/

    Here are some points on this topic.

    The traditional device provided with a Smart Meter is an IHD - In Home Display. This can display near real time usage on a display and (not yet having one) might show some historical data. Typically these devices give no other access.

    It is less known but equally possible to get a CAD - Consumer Access Device. This uses the same technology as an IHD and indeed some devices do both roles. However a CAD makes it possible to access this data either via a cloud service or locally in the home. The CAD might be for example linked to an existing smart home platform like Samsung Smartthings.

    Apparently the IHD provided by PurePlanet as part of their test SMETS2 rollout is a Geo Together Trio II Touch Button. Which is an IHD but can in theory also act as a CAD. (It needs an optional WiFi module to do this.)

    It is in theory possible to buy your own CAD device. The smart meters, IHD and CAD devices all talk to either other using the Zigbee wireless standard.

    IHD and CAD devices should be considered as part of the smart meter family.

    Energy Monitoring devices work differently. These typically work by using a clamp on the main electrical cable to measure power consumption and an optical sensor to watch the numbers changing on the gas meter. The product mentioned by Dutch is one of this type.

    There are some other similar Energy Monitoring products like this worth mentioning.

    There is the 'Smappee' range. See - https://www.smappee.com/be_en/homepage
    And there is the 'Sense' range. See - https://sense.com/

    Smappee have monitors for Electricity, Gas and even Water. It also has the option of monitoring solar panel energy output. It claims to be able to detect individual appliances and extract their individual power consumption. This latter aspect is not however fool proof or complete.

    Sense only seem to have an electricity monitor but they also claim to be able to identify the consumption of individual appliances and claim to have smart algorithms to do this. Last I checked Sense did not support Europe.

    Smappee looks an interesting option especially if you have solar panels. I would regard their claims of appliance level monitoring however as only a bonus and should not be regarded as the main reason to purchase it.

    Annoyingly - and this is not Smappee's fault, UK water meters are typically positioned at the edge of the public footpath next to your house. This makes it impractical to impossible to connect the Smappee sensor to it due to both range issues and the (UK) water companies likely being confused/upset and the possibility either the cable would have to go across the surface in to the (top) opening or for you to have to drill a hole in to the side underground. UK water utilities are of course like all other (especially UK) utilities and politicians practically technically illiterate and have no comprehension about this sort of stuff.

    I personally am looking to start off with a CAD device, probably the one provided by 'TheLabrador' energy switching service. See - https://kb.thelabrador.co.uk/trouble...rador-home-hub Currently this only reports to their system and is not accessible on your LAN but they are working on this. Later I plan to fit solar panels (tiles) and might then get Smappee as well.
    1
  • > Hi Dutch, these are monitors not smart meters, so maybe worth their own thread? Clip on electricity monitors
    > are usually pretty inaccurate the lower the consumption. Have you compared the readings you're getting with
    > your meters?

    @Marc
    Feel free to move this to a new thread as suggested.

    @DutchCaerleon
    As Mentioned by @talldave this is an energy monitor rather than a smart meter although that does not make it a bad thing. See - https://www.loopenergysaver.com/

    Here are some points on this topic.

    The traditional device provided with a Smart Meter is an IHD - In Home Display. This can display near real time usage on a display and (not yet having one) might show some historical data. Typically these devices give no other access.

    It is less known but equally possible to get a CAD - Consumer Access Device. This uses the same technology as an IHD and indeed some devices do both roles. However a CAD makes it possible to access this data either via a cloud service or locally in the home. The CAD might be for example linked to an existing smart home platform like Samsung Smartthings.

    Apparently the IHD provided by PurePlanet as part of their test SMETS2 rollout is a Geo Together Trio II Touch Button. Which is an IHD but can in theory also act as a CAD. (It needs an optional WiFi module to do this.)

    It is in theory possible to buy your own CAD device. The smart meters, IHD and CAD devices all talk to either other using the Zigbee wireless standard.

    IHD and CAD devices should be considered as part of the smart meter family.

    Energy Monitoring devices work differently. These typically work by using a clamp on the main electrical cable to measure power consumption and an optical sensor to watch the numbers changing on the gas meter. The product mentioned by Dutch is one of this type.

    There are some other similar Energy Monitoring products like this worth mentioning.

    There is the 'Smappee' range. See - https://www.smappee.com/be_en/homepage
    And there is the 'Sense' range. See - https://sense.com/

    Smappee have monitors for Electricity, Gas and even Water. It also has the option of monitoring solar panel energy output. It claims to be able to detect individual appliances and extract their individual power consumption. This latter aspect is not however fool proof or complete.

    Sense only seem to have an electricity monitor but they also claim to be able to identify the consumption of individual appliances and claim to have smart algorithms to do this. Last I checked Sense did not support Europe.

    Smappee looks an interesting option especially if you have solar panels. I would regard their claims of appliance level monitoring however as only a bonus and should not be regarded as the main reason to purchase it.

    Annoyingly - and this is not Smappee's fault, UK water meters are typically positioned at the edge of the public footpath next to your house. This makes it impractical to impossible to connect the Smappee sensor to it due to both range issues and the (UK) water companies likely being confused/upset and the possibility either the cable would have to go across the surface in to the (top) opening or for you to have to drill a hole in to the side underground. UK water utilities are of course like all other (especially UK) utilities and politicians practically technically illiterate and have no comprehension about this sort of stuff.

    I personally am looking to start off with a CAD device, probably the one provided by 'TheLabrador' energy switching service. See - https://kb.thelabrador.co.uk/trouble...rador-home-hub Currently this only reports to their system and is not accessible on your LAN but they are working on this. Later I plan to fit solar panels (tiles) and might then get Smappee as well.


  • hi Jelockwood,
    I see there’s ample opportunity to make the rollout of smart meters a lot more relevant to customers by giving them CAD devices. This would vastly improve buyin for what appears up till now to be an excruciatingly painful rollout. Unfortunately I doubt that this is genuinely being considered by many energy suppliers, or at least from where I am sitting, I don’t see much evidence that the benefit from smart meters is a greater access to data which customers could benefit (for those that choose to do so). I think companies should offer a basic smart meter for free, and for more people with a higher tolerance for Technology and ability to utilise it, a CAD device with all bells and whistles. I don’t mind paying (extra) for something that is closer to my needs and expectations.

    That’s why, in the absence of such choice, I tolerate the smallish inaccuracy that my Loop energy saver monitors provides, because I do get much more detailed insight in consumption patterns, weekly summary, tariff comparisons, and most importantly Loop energy saver has enabled my energy saving activities to become data-driven. And everything is accessible on my tablet when and where I want it, not some standalone device that itself consumes electricity.

    Of course, ideally I want every bit of raw data in the granularity that is being measured. And I already provided feedback to Loop to what I see are opportunities to improve accuracy (using led sensor for the electricity meter for instance), offset value for gas monitoring to compensate for any inaccuracy, and API access to the data feed. Ideally you’d like to interlink the Tado heating data and Loop energy gas monitoring so gas usage can be segmented even further by usage type cooking/hot water/heating etc etc.

    Funny you mentioned sense.com- I am subscribed to their mailing list hoping to be notified if they ever enter the EU market using U.K. as a springboard. Loop energy saver is looking into the into the possibility of providing appliance-level energy consumption monitoring similar to sense.

    In the meantime I’ve hooked up sonoff POW R2 smart switches to some of my appliances to endulge my desire for energy consumption monitoring on appliance level, as well as some smart switches to devices so I can control them based on time or occupancy via ifttt and Tado’s geolocation.

    How times have changed in the 30-33 years since I order my first energy monitor from Conrad Electronics... :-)
    1
  • hi Jelockwood,
    I see there’s ample opportunity to make the rollout of smart meters a lot more relevant to customers by giving them CAD devices. This would vastly improve buyin for what appears up till now to be an excruciatingly painful rollout. Unfortunately I doubt that this is genuinely being considered by many energy suppliers, or at least from where I am sitting, I don’t see much evidence that the benefit from smart meters is a greater access to data which customers could benefit (for those that choose to do so). I think companies should offer a basic smart meter for free, and for more people with a higher tolerance for Technology and ability to utilise it, a CAD device with all bells and whistles. I don’t mind paying (extra) for something that is closer to my needs and expectations.

    That’s why, in the absence of such choice, I tolerate the smallish inaccuracy that my Loop energy saver monitors provides, because I do get much more detailed insight in consumption patterns, weekly summary, tariff comparisons, and most importantly Loop energy saver has enabled my energy saving activities to become data-driven. And everything is accessible on my tablet when and where I want it, not some standalone device that itself consumes electricity.

    Of course, ideally I want every bit of raw data in the granularity that is being measured. And I already provided feedback to Loop to what I see are opportunities to improve accuracy (using led sensor for the electricity meter for instance), offset value for gas monitoring to compensate for any inaccuracy, and API access to the data feed. Ideally you’d like to interlink the Tado heating data and Loop energy gas monitoring so gas usage can be segmented even further by usage type cooking/hot water/heating etc etc.

    Funny you mentioned sense.com- I am subscribed to their mailing list hoping to be notified if they ever enter the EU market using U.K. as a springboard. Loop energy saver is looking into the into the possibility of providing appliance-level energy consumption monitoring similar to sense.

    In the meantime I’ve hooked up sonoff POW R2 smart switches to some of my appliances to endulge my desire for energy consumption monitoring on appliance level, as well as some smart switches to devices so I can control them based on time or occupancy via ifttt and Tado’s geolocation.

    How times have changed in the 30-33 years since I order my first energy monitor from Conrad Electronics... :-)


  • hi Dutch
    Interesting post, have you re-flashed the Sonoff firmware or is it as supplied?
    ​Have you checked the Sonoff measured consumption figures against anything else?
    Quote Originally Posted by DutchCaerleon View Post
    hi Jelockwood,


    In the meantime I’ve hooked up sonoff POW R2 smart switches to some of my appliances to endulge my desire for energy consumption monitoring on appliance level, as well as some smart switches to devices so I can control them based on time or occupancy via ifttt and Tado’s geolocation.
    0
  • hi Dutch
    Interesting post, have you re-flashed the Sonoff firmware or is it as supplied?
    ​Have you checked the Sonoff measured consumption figures against anything else?
    Quote Originally Posted by DutchCaerleon View Post
    hi Jelockwood,


    In the meantime I’ve hooked up sonoff POW R2 smart switches to some of my appliances to endulge my desire for energy consumption monitoring on appliance level, as well as some smart switches to devices so I can control them based on time or occupancy via ifttt and Tado’s geolocation.