• REGO's

    Does the energy you purchase come attached to REGO's or do you buy on the secondary market?
    1
  • Does the energy you purchase come attached to REGO's or do you buy on the secondary market?
  • hi GreenyGreen
    PP use REGOs
    (HERE is a link for those interested in what REGOs are)
    I don't know enough to know if they buy on the secondary market too, perhaps someone at PP will know if they do.
    ​If you reply perhaps you could expand your question and with more info on why you asked?
    There is more information in a post HERE which may lead you in the direction you seek (although I don't know your reason for asking so perhaps it wont?) and also HERE
    1
  • hi GreenyGreen
    PP use REGOs
    (HERE is a link for those interested in what REGOs are)
    I don't know enough to know if they buy on the secondary market too, perhaps someone at PP will know if they do.
    ​If you reply perhaps you could expand your question and with more info on why you asked?
    There is more information in a post HERE which may lead you in the direction you seek (although I don't know your reason for asking so perhaps it wont?) and also HERE
  • REGO's

    The point is that many companies offering 100% renewable tariffs are buying the cheapest brown power and buying very cheap REGO's on the secondary market at the end of the year. These REGO's are dumped by big companies like SSE that buy the cheapest power that may be wind or solar but their customers are not interested in whether the power is renewable so they can sell the certificates on at a very cheap price. The point is that when we ask for 100% renewable tariffs we hope to incentivise more renewables.

    - - - Updated - - -

    This web page explains clearly what I have said above and the reason for my question.

    https://www.regen.co.uk/we-need-to-t...nergy-tariffs/

    and here too:

    https://www.goodenergy.co.uk/blog/20...y-being-green/
    Last edited by GreenyGreen; 14-04-19 at 20:54. Reason: Typo plus add extra info re question
    2
  • The point is that many companies offering 100% renewable tariffs are buying the cheapest brown power and buying very cheap REGO's on the secondary market at the end of the year. These REGO's are dumped by big companies like SSE that buy the cheapest power that may be wind or solar but their customers are not interested in whether the power is renewable so they can sell the certificates on at a very cheap price. The point is that when we ask for 100% renewable tariffs we hope to incentivise more renewables.

    - - - Updated - - -

    This web page explains clearly what I have said above and the reason for my question.

    https://www.regen.co.uk/we-need-to-t...nergy-tariffs/

    and here too:

    https://www.goodenergy.co.uk/blog/20...y-being-green/
  • hi Greeny and @Marc @Nataly

    Thanks for the reply, and for the very interesting links.
    Given your reasons I think the topic deserves a response from someone at PP if only to reassure you.


    Quote Originally Posted by GreenyGreen View Post
    The point is that many companies offering 100% renewable tariffs are buying the cheapest brown power and buying very cheap REGO's on the secondary market at the end of the year. These REGO's are dumped by big companies like SSE that buy the cheapest power that may be wind or solar but their customers are not interested in whether the power is renewable so they can sell the certificates on at a very cheap price. The point is that when we ask for 100% renewable tariffs we hope to incentivise more renewables.

    - - - Updated - - -

    This web page explains clearly what I have said above and the reason for my question.

    https://www.regen.co.uk/we-need-to-t...nergy-tariffs/

    and here too:

    https://www.goodenergy.co.uk/blog/20...y-being-green/
    0
  • hi Greeny and @Marc @Nataly

    Thanks for the reply, and for the very interesting links.
    Given your reasons I think the topic deserves a response from someone at PP if only to reassure you.


    Quote Originally Posted by GreenyGreen View Post
    The point is that many companies offering 100% renewable tariffs are buying the cheapest brown power and buying very cheap REGO's on the secondary market at the end of the year. These REGO's are dumped by big companies like SSE that buy the cheapest power that may be wind or solar but their customers are not interested in whether the power is renewable so they can sell the certificates on at a very cheap price. The point is that when we ask for 100% renewable tariffs we hope to incentivise more renewables.

    - - - Updated - - -

    This web page explains clearly what I have said above and the reason for my question.

    https://www.regen.co.uk/we-need-to-t...nergy-tariffs/

    and here too:

    https://www.goodenergy.co.uk/blog/20...y-being-green/
  • Hi Woz

    No answer on this one yet?

    Here's another page explaining the background for my question:

    https://www.goodenergy.co.uk/blog/20...ffs-and-regos/

    It would be interesting to see how different companies' green tariffs compare on this issue but as a Pure Planet customer I'm asking the question here first.

    Thank you
    1
  • Hi Woz

    No answer on this one yet?

    Here's another page explaining the background for my question:

    https://www.goodenergy.co.uk/blog/20...ffs-and-regos/

    It would be interesting to see how different companies' green tariffs compare on this issue but as a Pure Planet customer I'm asking the question here first.

    Thank you
  • I'm sure PP will respond in time...
    In essence it (the secondary market) doesn't seem to look much different the whole Carbon Credit scam -sorry I meant scheme.
    I can't however understand why a secondary market is allowed and surely an ethical company would't trade in secondary REGOs.?
    Looked at from a different angle I'm unclear on how this works, surely a REGO can't exist unless somewhere in the generation system it marries to a pot of renewable energy. Is this saying that more REGOs than pots exist or is it that some who are truly providing renewable energy are not matching their supply to REGOs so excess REGOs exist hence the secondary market.?
    It could also be argued that the regulator has set up their own money making scheme and it should be run by a fully independent organisation with the money going back into renewable generation.(does it?)
    I'm afraid there are too many questions and (there is) not enough knowledge at this point....
    If anyone else wants to chip in feel free
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenyGreen View Post
    Hi Woz

    No answer on this one yet?

    Here's another page explaining the background for my question:

    https://www.goodenergy.co.uk/blog/20...ffs-and-regos/

    It would be interesting to see how different companies' green tariffs compare on this issue but as a Pure Planet customer I'm asking the question here first.

    Thank you
    Last edited by woz; 15-04-19 at 18:18.
    0
  • I'm sure PP will respond in time...
    In essence it (the secondary market) doesn't seem to look much different the whole Carbon Credit scam -sorry I meant scheme.
    I can't however understand why a secondary market is allowed and surely an ethical company would't trade in secondary REGOs.?
    Looked at from a different angle I'm unclear on how this works, surely a REGO can't exist unless somewhere in the generation system it marries to a pot of renewable energy. Is this saying that more REGOs than pots exist or is it that some who are truly providing renewable energy are not matching their supply to REGOs so excess REGOs exist hence the secondary market.?
    It could also be argued that the regulator has set up their own money making scheme and it should be run by a fully independent organisation with the money going back into renewable generation.(does it?)
    I'm afraid there are too many questions and (there is) not enough knowledge at this point....
    If anyone else wants to chip in feel free
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenyGreen View Post
    Hi Woz

    No answer on this one yet?

    Here's another page explaining the background for my question:

    https://www.goodenergy.co.uk/blog/20...ffs-and-regos/

    It would be interesting to see how different companies' green tariffs compare on this issue but as a Pure Planet customer I'm asking the question here first.

    Thank you
  • Hi Woz

    No answer on this one yet?

    Here's another page explaining the background for my question:

    https://www.goodenergy.co.uk/blog/20...ffs-and-regos/

    It would be interesting to see how different companies' green tariffs compare on this issue but as a Pure Planet customer I'm asking the question here first.

    Thank you
    0
  • Hi Woz

    No answer on this one yet?

    Here's another page explaining the background for my question:

    https://www.goodenergy.co.uk/blog/20...ffs-and-regos/

    It would be interesting to see how different companies' green tariffs compare on this issue but as a Pure Planet customer I'm asking the question here first.

    Thank you
  • As a customer I choose a '100% renewable' electricity supplier because I want to incentivise more renewable energy production by buying from a company that only buys wind and solar (for example) with their attached REGO's.

    Yes, the number of REGO's must match the amount of renewable electricity generated but a 'non-green' energy supply company can buy green electricity because it's cheapest at the time then sell on the associated REGO's as their customers aren't interested in how green their supply company is. A 'green' supply company can then purchase brown electricity and buy the unwanted REGO's cheap on the secondary market and thus claim their energy is backed by REGO's. So the customer is being mislead and their supposedly green supply company is not as green as supposed. So-called green electricity suppliers who aren't buying 100% directly REGO supported electricity don't seem to want to be transparent on this issue. I'm interested in how many companies are supplying truly 100% REGO linked electricity and is PP amongst them.
    It's a bit like a supermarket buying organic tomatoes because they're cheapest at the time, selling them as ordinary tomatoes then selling the organic labels cheaply to another supermarket to stick on their more cheaply purchased at the time non-organic tomatoes. The amount of certified tomatoes matches the number of labels but the customer is being misled.
    Last edited by GreenyGreen; 15-04-19 at 20:22. Reason: Typo
    0
  • As a customer I choose a '100% renewable' electricity supplier because I want to incentivise more renewable energy production by buying from a company that only buys wind and solar (for example) with their attached REGO's.

    Yes, the number of REGO's must match the amount of renewable electricity generated but a 'non-green' energy supply company can buy green electricity because it's cheapest at the time then sell on the associated REGO's as their customers aren't interested in how green their supply company is. A 'green' supply company can then purchase brown electricity and buy the unwanted REGO's cheap on the secondary market and thus claim their energy is backed by REGO's. So the customer is being mislead and their supposedly green supply company is not as green as supposed. So-called green electricity suppliers who aren't buying 100% directly REGO supported electricity don't seem to want to be transparent on this issue. I'm interested in how many companies are supplying truly 100% REGO linked electricity and is PP amongst them.
    It's a bit like a supermarket buying organic tomatoes because they're cheapest at the time, selling them as ordinary tomatoes then selling the organic labels cheaply to another supermarket to stick on their more cheaply purchased at the time non-organic tomatoes. The amount of certified tomatoes matches the number of labels but the customer is being misled.
  • Hi @GreenyGreen

    Fantastic thread, nice one for getting stuck in!
    This is quite complex, but...... read on.

    There are three ways to buy green electricity.
    Method 1. In advance with a renewable producer. You agree a deal pay them for an amount of units that they put onto the grid on your behalf over a year.
    Method 2. You community generate. Normally local co-ops, villages etc, who put renewables into the grid and again sell this to the wholesale market.
    Method 3. You buy power from the wholesale market and match that after the fact with renewable power that has been put into the grid by renewable generators through certificates.

    All 3 types are backed by REGOs.
    And all are limited by a common factor - time of day and night.
    In other words, it might be a calm day and no wind. Or it might be dark, such as at night time.
    How do you then get energy?

    Let’s say we have two energy suppliers, called A and B.

    Supplier A buys 100MW of renewable energy directly from Farmer Giles for a year, and with it 100 REGOs.
    Where does that energy go? Customers of Supplier A don’t get a special feed of energy from Farmer Giles’ field to their homes. It goes to the grid. And what do customers of Supplier A do at night when they want to use the loo and watch TV? They switch on the lights and the TV!
    At that time their energy, which comes from the grid, is coming from all kinds of sources. (Right now the UK doesn’t have a battery capacity to store clean energy for cloudy calm days and nights).


    Supplier B (which we at Pure Planet do) buys 100MW from the wholesale market and matches that at the end of the year with 100 REGOs, proving that we’re putting 100MW of renewable energy into the grid.
    The difference is that the generator of renewable energy (whether that’s a load of Farmer GIles in fields around the English countryside or a massive windfarm in the North Sea) doesn’t have a direct relationship Supplier B. The owners of the fields or wind farms are trading directly with the wholesale market through brokers.

    There’s nothing wrong with the method chosen by Supplier A. Both methods are about buying renewable power backed by REGOs and feeding it into the grid.
    But the route that Supplier B is on means it can be done at scale.

    As I’m sure you know, there are massive targets set by the Paris Agreement and the Government. The UK wants to be 50% powered by renewables by 2025.
    That won’t be achieved by paying small farmers to add more solar panels to their fields (sounds patronising, not meant to be).

    The argument that Supplier A uses is really an economic one - not a renewable ‘physics’ one. They argue that by committing to a particular (usually a smaller, local) generator in advance it is supporting the development of renewable generation. There is a small amount of truth in this. But the argument was far stronger 20 years ago when this up front commitment did indeed help small local farmers raise funds to finance the build of small scale wind farms.

    Today the scale of renewable generation has changed dramatically. It has been industrialised.
    It can be also now be argued that buying ‘after the fact’ is equally economically valid because it creates a dedicated green retail market - a consumer ‘pull’ - which in turn allows large scale producers to seek further finance (from big investment banks) for subsequent building of wind farms.
    Renewable capacity now being built costs billions. Not a million or two.

    It's not just demand from the Government legislation I mention above. Corporations are demanding action too - Apple the other day told its suppliers they need to be 100% renewable. There’s also - thankfully - more demand from people too, especially the younger generation who’ve recently been taking direct action.

    Blimey I’ve been going on a bit.
    Obviously we can’t comment on what other energy suppliers do (you mentioned SSE) and what other suppliers believe is the right approach (you’ve linked to Good Energy).

    What is definitely true is that it’s complex!

    Anyway I hope that’s helped clarify things a bit.

    To recap:
    REGOs can only be originated from genuine renewable power. It is therefore the same.
    All power to people’s homes is from the grid at all times.
    The reconciliation of this can be done before, during or after power is actually consumed by a customer met - so long as at the end of the year all your REGOs match the power bought for and used by consumers.
    There is no direct cable from a lovely solar or wind farmer to people’s homes. So the supplier still has to draw off the grid at all times to keep our lights in at home, and then balance.
    Community Manager - Pure Planet

    6
  • Hi @GreenyGreen

    Fantastic thread, nice one for getting stuck in!
    This is quite complex, but...... read on.

    There are three ways to buy green electricity.
    Method 1. In advance with a renewable producer. You agree a deal pay them for an amount of units that they put onto the grid on your behalf over a year.
    Method 2. You community generate. Normally local co-ops, villages etc, who put renewables into the grid and again sell this to the wholesale market.
    Method 3. You buy power from the wholesale market and match that after the fact with renewable power that has been put into the grid by renewable generators through certificates.

    All 3 types are backed by REGOs.
    And all are limited by a common factor - time of day and night.
    In other words, it might be a calm day and no wind. Or it might be dark, such as at night time.
    How do you then get energy?

    Let’s say we have two energy suppliers, called A and B.

    Supplier A buys 100MW of renewable energy directly from Farmer Giles for a year, and with it 100 REGOs.
    Where does that energy go? Customers of Supplier A don’t get a special feed of energy from Farmer Giles’ field to their homes. It goes to the grid. And what do customers of Supplier A do at night when they want to use the loo and watch TV? They switch on the lights and the TV!
    At that time their energy, which comes from the grid, is coming from all kinds of sources. (Right now the UK doesn’t have a battery capacity to store clean energy for cloudy calm days and nights).


    Supplier B (which we at Pure Planet do) buys 100MW from the wholesale market and matches that at the end of the year with 100 REGOs, proving that we’re putting 100MW of renewable energy into the grid.
    The difference is that the generator of renewable energy (whether that’s a load of Farmer GIles in fields around the English countryside or a massive windfarm in the North Sea) doesn’t have a direct relationship Supplier B. The owners of the fields or wind farms are trading directly with the wholesale market through brokers.

    There’s nothing wrong with the method chosen by Supplier A. Both methods are about buying renewable power backed by REGOs and feeding it into the grid.
    But the route that Supplier B is on means it can be done at scale.

    As I’m sure you know, there are massive targets set by the Paris Agreement and the Government. The UK wants to be 50% powered by renewables by 2025.
    That won’t be achieved by paying small farmers to add more solar panels to their fields (sounds patronising, not meant to be).

    The argument that Supplier A uses is really an economic one - not a renewable ‘physics’ one. They argue that by committing to a particular (usually a smaller, local) generator in advance it is supporting the development of renewable generation. There is a small amount of truth in this. But the argument was far stronger 20 years ago when this up front commitment did indeed help small local farmers raise funds to finance the build of small scale wind farms.

    Today the scale of renewable generation has changed dramatically. It has been industrialised.
    It can be also now be argued that buying ‘after the fact’ is equally economically valid because it creates a dedicated green retail market - a consumer ‘pull’ - which in turn allows large scale producers to seek further finance (from big investment banks) for subsequent building of wind farms.
    Renewable capacity now being built costs billions. Not a million or two.

    It's not just demand from the Government legislation I mention above. Corporations are demanding action too - Apple the other day told its suppliers they need to be 100% renewable. There’s also - thankfully - more demand from people too, especially the younger generation who’ve recently been taking direct action.

    Blimey I’ve been going on a bit.
    Obviously we can’t comment on what other energy suppliers do (you mentioned SSE) and what other suppliers believe is the right approach (you’ve linked to Good Energy).

    What is definitely true is that it’s complex!

    Anyway I hope that’s helped clarify things a bit.

    To recap:
    REGOs can only be originated from genuine renewable power. It is therefore the same.
    All power to people’s homes is from the grid at all times.
    The reconciliation of this can be done before, during or after power is actually consumed by a customer met - so long as at the end of the year all your REGOs match the power bought for and used by consumers.
    There is no direct cable from a lovely solar or wind farmer to people’s homes. So the supplier still has to draw off the grid at all times to keep our lights in at home, and then balance.
    Community Manager - Pure Planet

  • So are you saying that the difference between PP and a supplier not claiming to supply green electricity is that PP backs its claim by buying REGO's on the secondary market from other electricity supply companies at the end of the year?
    2
  • So are you saying that the difference between PP and a supplier not claiming to supply green electricity is that PP backs its claim by buying REGO's on the secondary market from other electricity supply companies at the end of the year?
  • Hi @GreenyGreen

    Yes. As I outlined (but maybe didn't make perfectly clear, point taken) in my post above is that PP uses Method 3 of buying REGOs.
    You buy power from the wholesale market and match that after the fact with renewable power that has been put into the grid by renewable generators through certificates.
    We want to accelerate the growth of renewable energy. Our mission is that 100% of the UK is powered by renewables, which is of course double the Government's target for 2025.
    It's been described to me as a sort of 'stock exchange' of REGOs. You may be right that there are other, bigger energy suppliers who use it to dump their REGOs on smaller energy suppliers like PP, in order to tick their 'renewable' box. That's not PP's aim. Ours is to increase the % of renewables in the wholesale market because that's the market which has the scale to impact and reverse climate change.
    Community Manager - Pure Planet

    2
  • Hi @GreenyGreen

    Yes. As I outlined (but maybe didn't make perfectly clear, point taken) in my post above is that PP uses Method 3 of buying REGOs.
    You buy power from the wholesale market and match that after the fact with renewable power that has been put into the grid by renewable generators through certificates.
    We want to accelerate the growth of renewable energy. Our mission is that 100% of the UK is powered by renewables, which is of course double the Government's target for 2025.
    It's been described to me as a sort of 'stock exchange' of REGOs. You may be right that there are other, bigger energy suppliers who use it to dump their REGOs on smaller energy suppliers like PP, in order to tick their 'renewable' box. That's not PP's aim. Ours is to increase the % of renewables in the wholesale market because that's the market which has the scale to impact and reverse climate change.
    Community Manager - Pure Planet

  • Boy, it’s complex 🙀🙀🙀🙀but boy you know your stuff Marc 👍👏👏👏👏👏👏👍
    Peace is always beautiful.

    WALT WHITMAN
    3
  • Boy, it’s complex 🙀🙀🙀🙀but boy you know your stuff Marc 👍👏👏👏👏👏👏👍
    Peace is always beautiful.

    WALT WHITMAN
  • Quote Originally Posted by Bev View Post
    Boy, it’s complex but boy you know your stuff Marc
    Not as much as I'd like to know @Bev
    But yes I'm trying to learn more as I go. People do Masters degrees and doctorates in this stuff!
    Community Manager - Pure Planet

    2
  • Quote Originally Posted by Bev View Post
    Boy, it’s complex but boy you know your stuff Marc
    Not as much as I'd like to know @Bev
    But yes I'm trying to learn more as I go. People do Masters degrees and doctorates in this stuff!
    Community Manager - Pure Planet

  • Wow. The knowledge people on this thread is incredible! I'm glad there are people clever enough to ask and answer these questions. Really informative thread and contributions. Thanks to all involved 👍
    4
  • Wow. The knowledge people on this thread is incredible! I'm glad there are people clever enough to ask and answer these questions. Really informative thread and contributions. Thanks to all involved 👍
  • Yes - I agree @The Thinker 😉
    4
  • Yes - I agree @The Thinker 😉