• No idea Stephen and Gray re two figs. Yes to Economy 7 Gray so maybe that’s why, no idea 🤷*♀️
    Peace is always beautiful.

    WALT WHITMAN
    0
  • No idea Stephen and Gray re two figs. Yes to Economy 7 Gray so maybe that’s why, no idea 🤷*♀️
    Peace is always beautiful.

    WALT WHITMAN


  • Actually, just checked parents account, they have dual fuel, and not economy 7, and they too have two figures! One of life’s mysteries!
    Peace is always beautiful.

    WALT WHITMAN
    0
  • Actually, just checked parents account, they have dual fuel, and not economy 7, and they too have two figures! One of life’s mysteries!
    Peace is always beautiful.

    WALT WHITMAN


  • I have just electricity and no Economy 7 and get a single membership fee.
    0
  • I have just electricity and no Economy 7 and get a single membership fee.


  • I don't believe it has anything to do with Economy 7.

    ​There are 3 dates on the statement,(well one date and 2 periods)
    1. The statement date e.g. 2nd April
    2. The for the period range, e.g. For the period 1 Apr 2019 to 30 Apr 2019 and
    3. The charging range, How we calculated your spend, e.g.100% green (31 Mar 2019 - 29 Apr 2019)

    I've just done a spreadsheet and it's thrown up more questions than answers but my gut feeling is the split is about how and where the 2 ranges above overlap and the status of the days in a month which depends on how they overlap.
    I know that sounds vague at the moment, I don't want to commit myself until I'm sure of what's happening, but I have to say I'm disappointed that there hasn't been a definitive answer from PP on how this is calculated, given that I queried this a year ago. It certainly isn't transparent - far from it.
    It's not about the money... @Marc @Nataly should these posts about membership fee have their own thread or be moved to an appropriate thread, not really on topic in this thread.?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bev View Post
    No idea Stephen and Gray re two figs. Yes to Economy 7 Gray so maybe that’s why, no idea ������*♀️
    Last edited by woz; 04-05-19 at 15:06.
    1
  • I don't believe it has anything to do with Economy 7.

    ​There are 3 dates on the statement,(well one date and 2 periods)
    1. The statement date e.g. 2nd April
    2. The for the period range, e.g. For the period 1 Apr 2019 to 30 Apr 2019 and
    3. The charging range, How we calculated your spend, e.g.100% green (31 Mar 2019 - 29 Apr 2019)

    I've just done a spreadsheet and it's thrown up more questions than answers but my gut feeling is the split is about how and where the 2 ranges above overlap and the status of the days in a month which depends on how they overlap.
    I know that sounds vague at the moment, I don't want to commit myself until I'm sure of what's happening, but I have to say I'm disappointed that there hasn't been a definitive answer from PP on how this is calculated, given that I queried this a year ago. It certainly isn't transparent - far from it.
    It's not about the money... @Marc @Nataly should these posts about membership fee have their own thread or be moved to an appropriate thread, not really on topic in this thread.?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bev View Post
    No idea Stephen and Gray re two figs. Yes to Economy 7 Gray so maybe that’s why, no idea ������*♀️


  • I'm starting to get really concerned about how PP is raising/applying the overall billing process. I can't seem to find any thread of consistency between the figures in my statements.....or within other people's statements. Some people have two separate figures (per fuel) for membership fees.....others, (like myself) only have one figure on the statements. My figures currently defy explanation regarding consistency/calculation.....and believe me I have attempted to apply any/all possible calculation scenarios.
    I feel that (for my statements) it all appears to have gone pear shaped when the membership fee changed and the payment periods switched from Winter to Summer payments.
    I know that the two things are not (supposedly) linked......however within my App/Account I experienced two distinct issues.
    I'm beginning to feel that a "standard" billing process is not being applied to all of PP customers. Surely to produce a statement for customers the only "variable" between my bill and another customers bill is the actual usage. (Assuming that it is not the first or last month of your "contract").
    I could go on ......but many in the Community will disagree with my own personal opinion on this issue, and I don't wish to upset/annoy/bore anyone. I await some form of understandable explanation from PP via WattBot or private message.......still waiting.
    Gray4276
    0
  • I'm starting to get really concerned about how PP is raising/applying the overall billing process. I can't seem to find any thread of consistency between the figures in my statements.....or within other people's statements. Some people have two separate figures (per fuel) for membership fees.....others, (like myself) only have one figure on the statements. My figures currently defy explanation regarding consistency/calculation.....and believe me I have attempted to apply any/all possible calculation scenarios.
    I feel that (for my statements) it all appears to have gone pear shaped when the membership fee changed and the payment periods switched from Winter to Summer payments.
    I know that the two things are not (supposedly) linked......however within my App/Account I experienced two distinct issues.
    I'm beginning to feel that a "standard" billing process is not being applied to all of PP customers. Surely to produce a statement for customers the only "variable" between my bill and another customers bill is the actual usage. (Assuming that it is not the first or last month of your "contract").
    I could go on ......but many in the Community will disagree with my own personal opinion on this issue, and I don't wish to upset/annoy/bore anyone. I await some form of understandable explanation from PP via WattBot or private message.......still waiting.
    Gray4276


  • I'm not irate about this but like you, Gray I'm on a mission....(think Blues Brothers- always dangerous!)
    I am however not too concerned, because any resolution (if there is one) will make b*gger all difference to my life.

    If others find this tedious or boring they can ignore it so I'm not fussed about it being in a public forum. In fact it's an advantage because the more input we get from others the easier it will be to figure this out.

    I have a theory about how/why it's calculated, the clue is in my previous post, but I don't feel there is anything to be gained by publishing it in case it's wrong...
    Suffice to say it's unbelievably and unnecessarilly complicated (This is undoubtedly down to PP quoting a monthly fee without defining what a month is and why/how...a month is a month is a month...) and depends on the status of the billing days and where they fall in the billing period, which is variable and different for each customer. PP have boxed themselves into a corner by going down this route and, in my opinion a major rethink is needed even if only to make the process more transparent because this discussion shouldn't have been necessary.
    I'm happy to share my spreadsheet with you, let me know by direct message if you want it.
    ​It doesn't work out at £8.00 a month...yet.
    In my opinion where they've gone wrong is trying to accommodate cross calendar month days, what they SHOULD have done was apply a single charge of exactly £8.00 (or £7.62 exc vat) to each monthly bill, IRRESPECTIVE OF THE BILLING DATE, and where there was a correction to be made because of a price change or because it was only a part month, that should have been listed separately calculated on a daily basis with the day rate adjusted for the number of days in the billing period (there's a clue in there) with an explanation for the correction (are you reading this PP?)
    That would be a good start.
    As ever I may be off-track here...



    Quote Originally Posted by Gray4276 View Post
    I'm starting to get really concerned about how PP is raising/applying the overall billing process. I can't seem to find any thread of consistency between the figures in my statements.....or within other people's statements. Some people have two separate figures (per fuel) for membership fees.....others, (like myself) only have one figure on the statements. My figures currently defy explanation regarding consistency/calculation.....and believe me I have attempted to apply any/all possible calculation scenarios.
    I feel that (for my statements) it all appears to have gone pear shaped when the membership fee changed and the payment periods switched from Winter to Summer payments.
    I know that the two things are not (supposedly) linked......however within my App/Account I experienced two distinct issues.
    I'm beginning to feel that a "standard" billing process is not being applied to all of PP customers. Surely to produce a statement for customers the only "variable" between my bill and another customers bill is the actual usage. (Assuming that it is not the first or last month of your "contract").
    I could go on ......but many in the Community will disagree with my own personal opinion on this issue, and I don't wish to upset/annoy/bore anyone. I await some form of understandable explanation from PP via WattBot or private message.......still waiting.
    Last edited by woz; 04-05-19 at 16:08.
    0
  • I'm not irate about this but like you, Gray I'm on a mission....(think Blues Brothers- always dangerous!)
    I am however not too concerned, because any resolution (if there is one) will make b*gger all difference to my life.

    If others find this tedious or boring they can ignore it so I'm not fussed about it being in a public forum. In fact it's an advantage because the more input we get from others the easier it will be to figure this out.

    I have a theory about how/why it's calculated, the clue is in my previous post, but I don't feel there is anything to be gained by publishing it in case it's wrong...
    Suffice to say it's unbelievably and unnecessarilly complicated (This is undoubtedly down to PP quoting a monthly fee without defining what a month is and why/how...a month is a month is a month...) and depends on the status of the billing days and where they fall in the billing period, which is variable and different for each customer. PP have boxed themselves into a corner by going down this route and, in my opinion a major rethink is needed even if only to make the process more transparent because this discussion shouldn't have been necessary.
    I'm happy to share my spreadsheet with you, let me know by direct message if you want it.
    ​It doesn't work out at £8.00 a month...yet.
    In my opinion where they've gone wrong is trying to accommodate cross calendar month days, what they SHOULD have done was apply a single charge of exactly £8.00 (or £7.62 exc vat) to each monthly bill, IRRESPECTIVE OF THE BILLING DATE, and where there was a correction to be made because of a price change or because it was only a part month, that should have been listed separately calculated on a daily basis with the day rate adjusted for the number of days in the billing period (there's a clue in there) with an explanation for the correction (are you reading this PP?)
    That would be a good start.
    As ever I may be off-track here...



    Quote Originally Posted by Gray4276 View Post
    I'm starting to get really concerned about how PP is raising/applying the overall billing process. I can't seem to find any thread of consistency between the figures in my statements.....or within other people's statements. Some people have two separate figures (per fuel) for membership fees.....others, (like myself) only have one figure on the statements. My figures currently defy explanation regarding consistency/calculation.....and believe me I have attempted to apply any/all possible calculation scenarios.
    I feel that (for my statements) it all appears to have gone pear shaped when the membership fee changed and the payment periods switched from Winter to Summer payments.
    I know that the two things are not (supposedly) linked......however within my App/Account I experienced two distinct issues.
    I'm beginning to feel that a "standard" billing process is not being applied to all of PP customers. Surely to produce a statement for customers the only "variable" between my bill and another customers bill is the actual usage. (Assuming that it is not the first or last month of your "contract").
    I could go on ......but many in the Community will disagree with my own personal opinion on this issue, and I don't wish to upset/annoy/bore anyone. I await some form of understandable explanation from PP via WattBot or private message.......still waiting.


  • Woz......you are absolutely correct by stating that PP should apply the monthly membership fee evenly to each month irrespective of the number of days in that month. £8.00 per month for every month would therefore appear as £7.62 (£8.00 less VAT). As the Meerkats say........."Simples"
    I honestly feel that the "TEAM(s)" at PP have got caught up in the "perceived" requirement to be "unnecessarily" clever in the application of formula to achieve a "highly accurate" figure. Unfortunately this really is not required. The number of days in your individual billing period becomes irrelevant if this simplified method of applying the membership fee is utilised. Even if a change of membership fee is implemented midway through a month, then the "adjusted/modified" overall fee is very simple to compute. It really isn't rocket science.......no need to make it so.
    When the membership fee was £8.50.....this appeared correctly (in my opinion) on my statements as £8.10 (£8.50 less VAT).......Unfortunately following the membership fee change, it's been all over the place. Like you said Woz....it's not about the money, t's all about the process and transparency of the application of fees to the statements.
    K.I.S.S.(Keep It Simple Stupid) I agree with you Woz.......I hope that PP are reading these posts......come on PP get this sorted.....please.
    Gray4276
    0
  • Woz......you are absolutely correct by stating that PP should apply the monthly membership fee evenly to each month irrespective of the number of days in that month. £8.00 per month for every month would therefore appear as £7.62 (£8.00 less VAT). As the Meerkats say........."Simples"
    I honestly feel that the "TEAM(s)" at PP have got caught up in the "perceived" requirement to be "unnecessarily" clever in the application of formula to achieve a "highly accurate" figure. Unfortunately this really is not required. The number of days in your individual billing period becomes irrelevant if this simplified method of applying the membership fee is utilised. Even if a change of membership fee is implemented midway through a month, then the "adjusted/modified" overall fee is very simple to compute. It really isn't rocket science.......no need to make it so.
    When the membership fee was £8.50.....this appeared correctly (in my opinion) on my statements as £8.10 (£8.50 less VAT).......Unfortunately following the membership fee change, it's been all over the place. Like you said Woz....it's not about the money, t's all about the process and transparency of the application of fees to the statements.
    K.I.S.S.(Keep It Simple Stupid) I agree with you Woz.......I hope that PP are reading these posts......come on PP get this sorted.....please.
    Gray4276


  • Sorry if you think I'm going round in circles...

    This is all bizarre because as I've stated my 1 x MF rate is applied the same every month disregarding of days.
    I joined and set up my spreads which meant the above method calc had to be based on a changeable day rate which I thought was odd.
    Then the MF was reduced, and a proportional day split calculation was applied, my statement was correct, but I still thought the above method was odd.
    If you leave PP I must assume that a proportional calc is made.

    In my view PP should aim towards charging a day rate for the membership (SC) fee so that only one method calc is applied.

    But as Woz has stated it does sound like PP are boxed in.
    And as Nat has advised its very complicated.

    I guess this may take a wee bit longer.
    Last edited by Strutt G; 04-05-19 at 19:19.
    0
  • Sorry if you think I'm going round in circles...

    This is all bizarre because as I've stated my 1 x MF rate is applied the same every month disregarding of days.
    I joined and set up my spreads which meant the above method calc had to be based on a changeable day rate which I thought was odd.
    Then the MF was reduced, and a proportional day split calculation was applied, my statement was correct, but I still thought the above method was odd.
    If you leave PP I must assume that a proportional calc is made.

    In my view PP should aim towards charging a day rate for the membership (SC) fee so that only one method calc is applied.

    But as Woz has stated it does sound like PP are boxed in.
    And as Nat has advised its very complicated.

    I guess this may take a wee bit longer.


  • Hi StruttG,

    [QUOTE=Strutt G;28716]

    This is all bizarre because as I've stated my 1 x MF rate is applied the same every month disregarding of days.
    [This is my point exactly....1 rate applied to everyones bill]

    In my view PP should aim towards charging a day rate for the membership (SC) fee so that only one method calc is applied.
    [Agreed......same comment as above]

    But as Woz has stated it does sound like PP are boxed in.
    [If PP are boxed in......it's all of PP's doing]

    And as Nat has advised its very complicated./QUOTE]
    [Then PP need to get it sorted......the system is "not fit for purpose" in it's current state (imho)
    Gray4276
    0
  • Hi StruttG,

    [QUOTE=Strutt G;28716]

    This is all bizarre because as I've stated my 1 x MF rate is applied the same every month disregarding of days.
    [This is my point exactly....1 rate applied to everyones bill]

    In my view PP should aim towards charging a day rate for the membership (SC) fee so that only one method calc is applied.
    [Agreed......same comment as above]

    But as Woz has stated it does sound like PP are boxed in.
    [If PP are boxed in......it's all of PP's doing]

    And as Nat has advised its very complicated./QUOTE]
    [Then PP need to get it sorted......the system is "not fit for purpose" in it's current state (imho)
    Gray4276


  • Hi everyone,

    Just to say I've moved your posts from the 'service updates' thread so they're all in one place on Gray's initial membership fee question, to avoid any confusion around the posts being in multiple places and help keep track of all the responses.

    We're continuing to investigate this and will be updating you all once we have more info to explain the issue.

    Thanks everyone for the great and in-depth conversation around statements and membership fees
    1
  • Hi everyone,

    Just to say I've moved your posts from the 'service updates' thread so they're all in one place on Gray's initial membership fee question, to avoid any confusion around the posts being in multiple places and help keep track of all the responses.

    We're continuing to investigate this and will be updating you all once we have more info to explain the issue.

    Thanks everyone for the great and in-depth conversation around statements and membership fees


  • Quote Originally Posted by woz View Post
    On a more serious note... @Marc please take the time to read this through...I'll try and keep it short...

    ​Disclaimer this is my opinion and not fact...yet

    I can't find my original post but I picked this problem up about a year ago. It was obvious that no one at PP was able to satisfactorily explain the exact algorithm used to calculate the monthly fee and after much head scratching I decided (perhaps wrongly) that it was calculated on an average month (365 or 366 divided by 12) basis and adjusted by single whole days depending on the length of the billing period. I couldn't understand the rationale behind this decision other than the fee was quoted monthly. It's the only way I could get the bill to reconcile and it was too complex (for my small brain) to put into a spreadsheet so I decided to tolerate the almost predictable error (around 10p per fee per month.)
    You also have to bear in mind the length of the billing period varies according to the billing date which may transcend over a different length month end
    If that's not bad enough for the average person to try to understand, there is the added complexity of what happens when there is a price change, which affects each person differently depending on where in the month their billing date is. It then becomes almost impossible.
    (later edit and if half days are involved that's even worse)

    This whole thing could have been avoided from the start by billing the days individually to sufficient decimal places, were the software able to calculate to sufficient decimal places which it probably can't, but that left another problem which may (I say may because I don't know) have been a regulatory issue, and which is that PP's terms state a MONTHLY membership fee, (not that it's made clear what a month is) but that would mean 31 days was charged the same monthly fee as 28, something I believe PP were not going to countenance.

    To solve this once and for all is, on the face of it, easy. It needs a single line in the T&C's to say that the monthly fee is based on a daily rate calculated on an annual basis assuming 365 or 366 days in a year, so different length months would differ slightly in price (and not be based on a calendar month), and then the rate could truly be calculated on a daily basis.

    Not only would this make the whole thing far more transparent and predictable (The statements after all should for transparency cover a whole number of days), but the added advantage would be that any price change on any day could be easily calculated in any billing period or back bill.

    For example:
    if the rate was quoted at £8.50/month = £102 inc vat = £97.142857ex vat/365= 26.614p/day plus vat (or worked backwards 26.614x365 = £97.14 + vat at 5% = £101.997 or £102
    similarly
    if the rate was £8.0/month = £96 inc vat = £91. 42857/365= 25.049p/day plus vat (or worked backwards 25.049x365 = £91.43 + vat at 5% = £96
    example
    31 day period, 4 days at 26.614=1.06456, Plus 27 days at 25.049=6.76323....total £7.83 or £8.22 inc vat

    So problem solved with an extra decimal place or 2 and easily calculable bills even if there is a price rise
    and if PP want to round down by one decimal place it will cost them almost nothing over the course of a year (try it for yourself)

    There is a more serious point to all this, billing should be transparent, the way the monthly fee is calculated may well be correct over a year (no idea I cba testing it as it's too complicated with two price changes so far) but what I am sure of is that an average customer doesn't have a cat-in-hells chance (cats don't do hell or mine don't so I have no idea why I said that) of knowing if it's correct or it isn't because of the non-transparent way it's calculated, and in my book that's not good enough.
    P.S.
    I'm not really surprised that you found it too complex to explain the error, it's probably related to where in the month the billing cycle falls.
    I'd like your billing people to read this and reply (when you have more info).

    I hope I'm not completely off-track with my thoughts....the algorithm has not been forthcoming yet.
    P.P.S
    I've noticed an inverse relationship between my post length and my credibility... sorry failed to keep it short..
    Hi Woz,
    Did you ever get any answer from the PP Team(s) to this very in depth commentary on the Membership Fee conundrum..... I suspect not.!!!
    Gray4276
    0
  • Quote Originally Posted by woz View Post
    On a more serious note... @Marc please take the time to read this through...I'll try and keep it short...

    ​Disclaimer this is my opinion and not fact...yet

    I can't find my original post but I picked this problem up about a year ago. It was obvious that no one at PP was able to satisfactorily explain the exact algorithm used to calculate the monthly fee and after much head scratching I decided (perhaps wrongly) that it was calculated on an average month (365 or 366 divided by 12) basis and adjusted by single whole days depending on the length of the billing period. I couldn't understand the rationale behind this decision other than the fee was quoted monthly. It's the only way I could get the bill to reconcile and it was too complex (for my small brain) to put into a spreadsheet so I decided to tolerate the almost predictable error (around 10p per fee per month.)
    You also have to bear in mind the length of the billing period varies according to the billing date which may transcend over a different length month end
    If that's not bad enough for the average person to try to understand, there is the added complexity of what happens when there is a price change, which affects each person differently depending on where in the month their billing date is. It then becomes almost impossible.
    (later edit and if half days are involved that's even worse)

    This whole thing could have been avoided from the start by billing the days individually to sufficient decimal places, were the software able to calculate to sufficient decimal places which it probably can't, but that left another problem which may (I say may because I don't know) have been a regulatory issue, and which is that PP's terms state a MONTHLY membership fee, (not that it's made clear what a month is) but that would mean 31 days was charged the same monthly fee as 28, something I believe PP were not going to countenance.

    To solve this once and for all is, on the face of it, easy. It needs a single line in the T&C's to say that the monthly fee is based on a daily rate calculated on an annual basis assuming 365 or 366 days in a year, so different length months would differ slightly in price (and not be based on a calendar month), and then the rate could truly be calculated on a daily basis.

    Not only would this make the whole thing far more transparent and predictable (The statements after all should for transparency cover a whole number of days), but the added advantage would be that any price change on any day could be easily calculated in any billing period or back bill.

    For example:
    if the rate was quoted at £8.50/month = £102 inc vat = £97.142857ex vat/365= 26.614p/day plus vat (or worked backwards 26.614x365 = £97.14 + vat at 5% = £101.997 or £102
    similarly
    if the rate was £8.0/month = £96 inc vat = £91. 42857/365= 25.049p/day plus vat (or worked backwards 25.049x365 = £91.43 + vat at 5% = £96
    example
    31 day period, 4 days at 26.614=1.06456, Plus 27 days at 25.049=6.76323....total £7.83 or £8.22 inc vat

    So problem solved with an extra decimal place or 2 and easily calculable bills even if there is a price rise
    and if PP want to round down by one decimal place it will cost them almost nothing over the course of a year (try it for yourself)

    There is a more serious point to all this, billing should be transparent, the way the monthly fee is calculated may well be correct over a year (no idea I cba testing it as it's too complicated with two price changes so far) but what I am sure of is that an average customer doesn't have a cat-in-hells chance (cats don't do hell or mine don't so I have no idea why I said that) of knowing if it's correct or it isn't because of the non-transparent way it's calculated, and in my book that's not good enough.
    P.S.
    I'm not really surprised that you found it too complex to explain the error, it's probably related to where in the month the billing cycle falls.
    I'd like your billing people to read this and reply (when you have more info).

    I hope I'm not completely off-track with my thoughts....the algorithm has not been forthcoming yet.
    P.P.S
    I've noticed an inverse relationship between my post length and my credibility... sorry failed to keep it short..
    Hi Woz,
    Did you ever get any answer from the PP Team(s) to this very in depth commentary on the Membership Fee conundrum..... I suspect not.!!!
    Gray4276


  • hi Gray, I think it's work in progress...my suspicion is that the link between to original billing software and a human who understands it, (and ergo how to modify it) is er, ...a bit broken...The person who wrote the original billing software is probably in a sanitorium anyway...
    My last fee was wrong too.
    Do you want to see my spreadsheet? (Ooh matron! I bet you don't get many offers like that...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray4276 View Post
    Hi Woz,
    Did you ever get any answer from the PP Team(s) to this very in depth commentary on the Membership Fee conundrum..... I suspect not.!!!
    0
  • hi Gray, I think it's work in progress...my suspicion is that the link between to original billing software and a human who understands it, (and ergo how to modify it) is er, ...a bit broken...The person who wrote the original billing software is probably in a sanitorium anyway...
    My last fee was wrong too.
    Do you want to see my spreadsheet? (Ooh matron! I bet you don't get many offers like that...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray4276 View Post
    Hi Woz,
    Did you ever get any answer from the PP Team(s) to this very in depth commentary on the Membership Fee conundrum..... I suspect not.!!!


  • Quote Originally Posted by woz View Post
    hi Gray,
    Do you want to see my spreadsheet? (Ooh matron! I bet you don't get many offers like that...)
    ​😂😂😂😂😂😂👍👏👏👏
    Peace is always beautiful.

    WALT WHITMAN
    2
  • Quote Originally Posted by woz View Post
    hi Gray,
    Do you want to see my spreadsheet? (Ooh matron! I bet you don't get many offers like that...)
    ​😂😂😂😂😂😂👍👏👏👏
    Peace is always beautiful.

    WALT WHITMAN


  • Quote Originally Posted by woz View Post
    hi Gray, I think it's work in progress...my suspicion is that the link between to original billing software and a human who understands it, (and ergo how to modify it) is er, ...a bit broken...The person who wrote the original billing software is probably in a sanitorium anyway...
    My last fee was wrong too.
    Do you want to see my spreadsheet? (Ooh matron! I bet you don't get many offers like that...)
    Hey Woz,
    You may (or maybe not) be interested to know that I have added extra pages to my spreadsheet so that I can run the various scenarios for working out the membership fees. This has led me to the conclusion that this is either an incorrect software issue..... or a human interface fault when applying the formula.
    More of a concern really is the fact that this "fault" does not apply to every customers bill/statement.
    I will be doing a comparison between my different spreadsheet pages against my "actual statements" to see if there is any corolation between the "fact" or "fiction" so far produced. I will be happy to exchange spreadsheet information with you once I've ratified the results.
    Last edited by Gray4276; 07-05-19 at 15:41. Reason: Spelling mistakes
    Gray4276
    1
  • Quote Originally Posted by woz View Post
    hi Gray, I think it's work in progress...my suspicion is that the link between to original billing software and a human who understands it, (and ergo how to modify it) is er, ...a bit broken...The person who wrote the original billing software is probably in a sanitorium anyway...
    My last fee was wrong too.
    Do you want to see my spreadsheet? (Ooh matron! I bet you don't get many offers like that...)
    Hey Woz,
    You may (or maybe not) be interested to know that I have added extra pages to my spreadsheet so that I can run the various scenarios for working out the membership fees. This has led me to the conclusion that this is either an incorrect software issue..... or a human interface fault when applying the formula.
    More of a concern really is the fact that this "fault" does not apply to every customers bill/statement.
    I will be doing a comparison between my different spreadsheet pages against my "actual statements" to see if there is any corolation between the "fact" or "fiction" so far produced. I will be happy to exchange spreadsheet information with you once I've ratified the results.
    Gray4276


  • good luck.. yes happy to swap info.
    Like I said (or perhaps I only thought I'd said?) my guess is the "status" of the days at the start and end of the billing period, i.e how the charges are applied to those days, is different if they lie at the end/start of the month. I think that's the crux of the problem.
    I couldn't find an exact correlation, tbh I gave up temporarily - lack of time and ability, but my intuition and (poor) spreadsheet is leading me down that route; I think if the price change hadn't have happened it may have become much clearer as to the logic (if there is any logic)
    The "status" of the end of month days would explain why some are being charged correctly as those whose bills start and end mid month are perhaps being billed correctly (but how could you know that it only applies to some customers and which ones?)

    On a slightly different note, but related to my previous long post, out of 13 months of my billing only 6 months have a statement figure that actually equals the membership fee (within the 1p rounding error), the remaining fees are up and down like a strumpet's yoyo (haha see what I did there.. - they may chase me but they'll never catch me...)

    Forgive my expectations here but if PP quote a monthly fee (I know this is the point you're making too) and there are no impositions like price changes or composite/consolidated bills, then most customers would rightly expect that figure to appear on the statement EVERY MONTH, unless, and it's a big unless, there is a very large caveat somewhere in the T&C's that says it might not be exact in one month but will definitely correct over say 2 months (not 3 or 4 note). Even that isn't good enough because it would lead to a correction of the correction if a customer left on the 2nd month.
    As I said it depends what a reasonable person considers a month to be - for me and every other customer getting one statement a month, a month relates to one statement month wherever the days lie, and that's where it's all gone wrong (in my opinion).
    The outliers like price rises, or consolidated bills that don't cover whole months, or people coming and going should be treated separately and THE MAJORITY of customers who get a statement once a month should see an exact amount of one months fee. It's frustrating, and I'm sure it's a much bigger problem (although not in £££) than it first appears to be. I just hope it doesn't cause PP too much grief, as there is no intent to overcharge.

    A long time ago I said that I hoped PP had some form of revenue assurance, (R.A is not just to chase up non-payers but to ensure customers are being charged correctly) this falls firmly into that category.

    Without more info and the MF algorithm it's going to be very hard to unpick this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray4276 View Post
    Hey Woz,
    You may (or maybe not) be interested to know that I have added extra pages to my spreadsheet so that I can run the various scenarios for working out the membership fees. This has led me to the conclusion that this is either an incorrect software issue..... or a human interface fault when applying the formula.
    More of a concern really is the fact that this "fault" does not apply to every customers bill/statement.
    I will be doing a comparison between my different spreadsheet pages against my "actual statements" to see if there is any corolation between the "fact" or "fiction" so far produced. I will be happy to exchange spreadsheet information with you once I've ratified the results.
    Last edited by woz; 07-05-19 at 16:51.
    1
  • good luck.. yes happy to swap info.
    Like I said (or perhaps I only thought I'd said?) my guess is the "status" of the days at the start and end of the billing period, i.e how the charges are applied to those days, is different if they lie at the end/start of the month. I think that's the crux of the problem.
    I couldn't find an exact correlation, tbh I gave up temporarily - lack of time and ability, but my intuition and (poor) spreadsheet is leading me down that route; I think if the price change hadn't have happened it may have become much clearer as to the logic (if there is any logic)
    The "status" of the end of month days would explain why some are being charged correctly as those whose bills start and end mid month are perhaps being billed correctly (but how could you know that it only applies to some customers and which ones?)

    On a slightly different note, but related to my previous long post, out of 13 months of my billing only 6 months have a statement figure that actually equals the membership fee (within the 1p rounding error), the remaining fees are up and down like a strumpet's yoyo (haha see what I did there.. - they may chase me but they'll never catch me...)

    Forgive my expectations here but if PP quote a monthly fee (I know this is the point you're making too) and there are no impositions like price changes or composite/consolidated bills, then most customers would rightly expect that figure to appear on the statement EVERY MONTH, unless, and it's a big unless, there is a very large caveat somewhere in the T&C's that says it might not be exact in one month but will definitely correct over say 2 months (not 3 or 4 note). Even that isn't good enough because it would lead to a correction of the correction if a customer left on the 2nd month.
    As I said it depends what a reasonable person considers a month to be - for me and every other customer getting one statement a month, a month relates to one statement month wherever the days lie, and that's where it's all gone wrong (in my opinion).
    The outliers like price rises, or consolidated bills that don't cover whole months, or people coming and going should be treated separately and THE MAJORITY of customers who get a statement once a month should see an exact amount of one months fee. It's frustrating, and I'm sure it's a much bigger problem (although not in £££) than it first appears to be. I just hope it doesn't cause PP too much grief, as there is no intent to overcharge.

    A long time ago I said that I hoped PP had some form of revenue assurance, (R.A is not just to chase up non-payers but to ensure customers are being charged correctly) this falls firmly into that category.

    Without more info and the MF algorithm it's going to be very hard to unpick this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray4276 View Post
    Hey Woz,
    You may (or maybe not) be interested to know that I have added extra pages to my spreadsheet so that I can run the various scenarios for working out the membership fees. This has led me to the conclusion that this is either an incorrect software issue..... or a human interface fault when applying the formula.
    More of a concern really is the fact that this "fault" does not apply to every customers bill/statement.
    I will be doing a comparison between my different spreadsheet pages against my "actual statements" to see if there is any corolation between the "fact" or "fiction" so far produced. I will be happy to exchange spreadsheet information with you once I've ratified the results.


  • Quote Originally Posted by woz View Post
    good luck.. yes happy to swap info.
    Like I said (or perhaps I only thought I'd said?) my guess is the "status" of the days at the start and end of the billing period, i.e how the charges are applied to those days, is different if they lie at the end/start of the month. I think that's the crux of the problem.
    I couldn't find an exact correlation, tbh I gave up temporarily - lack of time and ability, but my intuition and (poor) spreadsheet is leading me down that route; I think if the price change hadn't have happened it may have become much clearer as to the logic (if there is any logic)
    The "status" of the end of month days would explain why some are being charged correctly as those whose bills start and end mid month are perhaps being billed correctly (but how could you know that it only applies to some customers and which ones?)

    On a slightly different note, but related to my previous long post, out of 13 months of my billing only 6 months have a statement figure that actually equals the membership fee (within the 1p rounding error), the remaining fees are up and down like a strumpet's yoyo (haha see what I did there.. - they may chase me but they'll never catch me...)

    Forgive my expectations here but if PP quote a monthly fee (I know this is the point you're making too) and there are no impositions like price changes or composite/consolidated bills, then most customers would rightly expect that figure to appear on the statement EVERY MONTH, unless, and it's a big unless, there is a very large caveat somewhere in the T&C's that says it might not be exact in one month but will definitely correct over say 2 months (not 3 or 4 note). Even that isn't good enough because it would lead to a correction of the correction if a customer left on the 2nd month.
    As I said it depends what a reasonable person considers a month to be - for me and every other customer getting one statement a month, a month relates to one statement month wherever the days lie, and that's where it's all gone wrong (in my opinion).
    The outliers like price rises, or consolidated bills that don't cover whole months, or people coming and going should be treated separately and THE MAJORITY of customers who get a statement once a month should see an exact amount of one months fee. It's frustrating, and I'm sure it's a much bigger problem (although not in £££) than it first appears to be. I just hope it doesn't cause PP too much grief, as there is no intent to overcharge.

    A long time ago I said that I hoped PP had some form of revenue assurance, (R.A is not just to chase up non-payers but to ensure customers are being charged correctly) this falls firmly into that category.

    Without more info and the MF algorithm it's going to be very hard to unpick this.
    Hey Woz......just found this quote regarding the MF in the additional info part of Marc's post announcing the "New Gas Tariff"

    "Our Membership fee is the standing charge. It’s the daily rate calculated and collected in 12 equal monthly installments each year."

    I especially like the part that states "collected in 12 EQUAL installments each year" Therefore it SHOULD be £8.00 less 5% VAT which = £7.62 every month. This proves that if customers are seeing different MF rates in their statements......then it's a fault within their individual statement process or a Manual Interface (human) mistake. There you go PP.......your words......now please rectify this issue. If that means that PP has to review each and every customers account......then so be it. If you do indeed have various team(s) working within PP, then a team shouldn't find it too difficult to rectify. I await your results with a happy heart ������
    Last edited by Gray4276; 08-05-19 at 14:44. Reason: Spelling
    Gray4276
    0
  • Quote Originally Posted by woz View Post
    good luck.. yes happy to swap info.
    Like I said (or perhaps I only thought I'd said?) my guess is the "status" of the days at the start and end of the billing period, i.e how the charges are applied to those days, is different if they lie at the end/start of the month. I think that's the crux of the problem.
    I couldn't find an exact correlation, tbh I gave up temporarily - lack of time and ability, but my intuition and (poor) spreadsheet is leading me down that route; I think if the price change hadn't have happened it may have become much clearer as to the logic (if there is any logic)
    The "status" of the end of month days would explain why some are being charged correctly as those whose bills start and end mid month are perhaps being billed correctly (but how could you know that it only applies to some customers and which ones?)

    On a slightly different note, but related to my previous long post, out of 13 months of my billing only 6 months have a statement figure that actually equals the membership fee (within the 1p rounding error), the remaining fees are up and down like a strumpet's yoyo (haha see what I did there.. - they may chase me but they'll never catch me...)

    Forgive my expectations here but if PP quote a monthly fee (I know this is the point you're making too) and there are no impositions like price changes or composite/consolidated bills, then most customers would rightly expect that figure to appear on the statement EVERY MONTH, unless, and it's a big unless, there is a very large caveat somewhere in the T&C's that says it might not be exact in one month but will definitely correct over say 2 months (not 3 or 4 note). Even that isn't good enough because it would lead to a correction of the correction if a customer left on the 2nd month.
    As I said it depends what a reasonable person considers a month to be - for me and every other customer getting one statement a month, a month relates to one statement month wherever the days lie, and that's where it's all gone wrong (in my opinion).
    The outliers like price rises, or consolidated bills that don't cover whole months, or people coming and going should be treated separately and THE MAJORITY of customers who get a statement once a month should see an exact amount of one months fee. It's frustrating, and I'm sure it's a much bigger problem (although not in £££) than it first appears to be. I just hope it doesn't cause PP too much grief, as there is no intent to overcharge.

    A long time ago I said that I hoped PP had some form of revenue assurance, (R.A is not just to chase up non-payers but to ensure customers are being charged correctly) this falls firmly into that category.

    Without more info and the MF algorithm it's going to be very hard to unpick this.
    Hey Woz......just found this quote regarding the MF in the additional info part of Marc's post announcing the "New Gas Tariff"

    "Our Membership fee is the standing charge. It’s the daily rate calculated and collected in 12 equal monthly installments each year."

    I especially like the part that states "collected in 12 EQUAL installments each year" Therefore it SHOULD be £8.00 less 5% VAT which = £7.62 every month. This proves that if customers are seeing different MF rates in their statements......then it's a fault within their individual statement process or a Manual Interface (human) mistake. There you go PP.......your words......now please rectify this issue. If that means that PP has to review each and every customers account......then so be it. If you do indeed have various team(s) working within PP, then a team shouldn't find it too difficult to rectify. I await your results with a happy heart ������
    Gray4276


  • Hi to all you "Membership Fee" sufferers.
    Just a quick update on this continuing issue.
    Just received my latest statement, and guess what, the Membership Fee is...... WRONG AGAIN... but this time it's..... TOO LOW.... can you believe it!!!
    I will post a bit more detail later, when I've got a bit more time.
    That is 3 consecutive periods where the MF is wrong....!!!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray4276 View Post
    Hi to all you "Membership Fee" sufferers.
    Just a quick update on this continuing issue.
    Just received my latest statement, and guess what, the Membership Fee is...... WRONG AGAIN... but this time it's..... TOO LOW.... can you believe it!!!
    I will post a bit more detail later, when I've got a bit more time.
    That is 3 consecutive periods where the MF is wrong....!!!
    Just to let everyone know that I've just logged this via Wattbot..... AGAIN for "The Team" who were "apparently" already dealing with this as their "Top Priority"
    Gray4276
    0
  • Hi to all you "Membership Fee" sufferers.
    Just a quick update on this continuing issue.
    Just received my latest statement, and guess what, the Membership Fee is...... WRONG AGAIN... but this time it's..... TOO LOW.... can you believe it!!!
    I will post a bit more detail later, when I've got a bit more time.
    That is 3 consecutive periods where the MF is wrong....!!!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray4276 View Post
    Hi to all you "Membership Fee" sufferers.
    Just a quick update on this continuing issue.
    Just received my latest statement, and guess what, the Membership Fee is...... WRONG AGAIN... but this time it's..... TOO LOW.... can you believe it!!!
    I will post a bit more detail later, when I've got a bit more time.
    That is 3 consecutive periods where the MF is wrong....!!!
    Just to let everyone know that I've just logged this via Wattbot..... AGAIN for "The Team" who were "apparently" already dealing with this as their "Top Priority"
    Gray4276


  • Hi Gray4276.
    As you know I also suffered the membership fee anomaly, which as far as I know has not been rectified.
    As a matter of interest, I have just had a smart meter fitted, and although the gas meter does not show on the IHD the electric does.Going through options I came to tariff, this shows Daily Standing Charge at 25.806
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    0
  • Hi Gray4276.
    As you know I also suffered the membership fee anomaly, which as far as I know has not been rectified.
    As a matter of interest, I have just had a smart meter fitted, and although the gas meter does not show on the IHD the electric does.Going through options I came to tariff, this shows Daily Standing Charge at 25.806
    Attached Images Attached Images  


  • Quess what Duppy........That still does not work out right ......WOW can you believe it !!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Duppy View Post
    Hi Gray4276.
    As you know I also suffered the membership fee anomaly, which as far as I know has not been rectified.
    As a matter of interest, I have just had a smart meter fitted, and although the gas meter does not show on the IHD the electric does.Going through options I came to tariff, this shows Daily Standing Charge at 25.806
    Gray4276
    0
  • Quess what Duppy........That still does not work out right ......WOW can you believe it !!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Duppy View Post
    Hi Gray4276.
    As you know I also suffered the membership fee anomaly, which as far as I know has not been rectified.
    As a matter of interest, I have just had a smart meter fitted, and although the gas meter does not show on the IHD the electric does.Going through options I came to tariff, this shows Daily Standing Charge at 25.806
    Gray4276


  • Hi everybody,

    Another update regarding my current position on my ongoing Incorrect Membership Fee:
    To date, I have been refunded the total amount that has been charged at the wrong rate. (So that's good)
    Still no indication on why the MF was wrong. (So that's bad)
    I was given assurance that the MF would be "correctly applied" on last months statement.
    It was wrong. (So that's bad)

    I will receive my latest statement tomorrow and I will respond tomorrow with the latest MF figure charged.
    Last edited by Gray4276; 30-06-19 at 19:04.
    Gray4276
    0
  • Hi everybody,

    Another update regarding my current position on my ongoing Incorrect Membership Fee:
    To date, I have been refunded the total amount that has been charged at the wrong rate. (So that's good)
    Still no indication on why the MF was wrong. (So that's bad)
    I was given assurance that the MF would be "correctly applied" on last months statement.
    It was wrong. (So that's bad)

    I will receive my latest statement tomorrow and I will respond tomorrow with the latest MF figure charged.
    Gray4276