How can Pure Planet encourage adoption of electric vehicles and support our Members who already own EVs?



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bobbin2u;35323:
Something which would be a clear benefit to everyone and borne out in the guidance and comments from Ofgem.


I'm not sure that was how I read the comments from Ofgem!! Enjoy your Octopus...
Stephen
stephenrand;35331:
I'm not sure that was how I read the comments from Ofgem!! Enjoy your Octopus...
Stephen


Thanks for your post, it is indeed really helpful. It illustrates the seeming lack of understanding by Pure Planet, hence leading some members on this forum to infer that incentives through the tariff/cheaper rates for overnight charging would inevitably need to be subsidised by other customers and/or increase costs during the daytime.

I was highlighting that the guidelines you posted from Ofgem are calling for ...
"supporting an improved tariff to encourage overnight home charging of EVs. Something which would be a clear benefit to everyone and borne out in the guidance and comments from Ofgem."

The key is that Ofgem guidelines are much about changes within the Energy sector benefiting *everyone*. I.E. Not just to accommodate EV owners and their inevitable increased demand for electricity. More demand, particularly at the wrong time, could increase prices for all.

stephenrand;35322:


But it also seems relevant to quote Ofgem's own comments on preparing for the EV revolution:

"we consider two core principles should determine industry’s approach to facilitating the EV transition:

• Industry should focus on minimising overall system costs for all consumers (including non-EV users), by seeking to make more efficient use of our existing assets, before considering reinforcement. The development of new markets that provide flexibility will play a key role here, by incentivising or automating the shifting of load away from peak demand, even if total demand increases. This means that network companies should not expect to be remunerated for reinforcement alone when more cost-effective solutions exist.


This is basically explaining the Energy industry should do everything possible NOT to build more power stations, large scale solar and wind farm installations to meet the increased demand from EV users at peak times. This will have the effect of producing EVEN MORE energy at off-peak times which is already underutilised and would inevitably increase the overall cost. It would, therefore, penalise non-EV owners by substantially increasing the cost of electricity for everyone.

One very important way to "seek more efficient use of existing assets" and "incentivising or automating the shifting of load away from peak demand, even if total demand increases." is to encourage EV charging overnight by offering incentives to do so. Something which seems to evade Pure Planet's understanding, on this forum at least. All their rhetoric points to cheaper prices for EV overnight charging would need to be subsidised by non-EV overnight users which is untrue.

stephenrand;35322:

• Early adopters of EVs serve to promote an industry that brings both energy system and decarbonisation benefits, and contribute to learning and cost reductions that will benefit later adopters.


These customers are important to PP and all PP non-EV customers and should be encouraged to stay with PP, the poll in this thread has a clear result that PP seems to want to discourage with miss-information.

stephenrand;35322:

• However, if EV users choose to charge during peak times, under current arrangements they will impose considerable costs which will be borne by all consumers.


This couldn't be clearer. So to say that fast charging and supporting charging at peak times such as on the way to work or at work is a poor show.

Encouraging home and overnight charging as much as possible will clearly benefit everyone.

stephenrand;35322:

Hope that helps!?
Stephen


It helps hugely, thanks for posting this.
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So it's all good then, it looks like we are all in happy agreement, the most sensible thing for EV owners, to the greater benefit of all consumers in the long run and irrespective of price, is for them to charge their vehicles when there is excess grid capacity. I haven't seen or read anything written by PP or me to say that isn't the case.

How you get there and what customers prefer to do is a different issue and that (in part) is what this thread is about.

Economy 7 is a good comparator here. There are lots of customers who have moved to PP who are on E7 metering; you have to ask yourself why in some cases they would do that when, especially for the higher night rate users there are tariffs out there which would be cheaper than PP. The answer in my opinion is the simplicity of a single rate appeals, they get what they perceive is the freedom to not worry about when they are using their energy. There is an argument to be made that for the greater good it would be better if they were encouraged to use more of their energy off-peak. This is no different from the EV argument, save for the fact that the growth of EV usage will doubtless be exponential, whereas normal domestic excluding EV is fairly constant.


(@bobbin2u did you mean evade rather than allude above?)
There have been plenty of comments suggesting the following:
- EV tariff incentives will increase costs for all other customers.
- PP flat rate is already cheaper than all other EV tariffs and therefore is the correct thing to attract EV customers to PP (let alone keep the ones they have already).
- I have already pointed out other examples where PP and some members are contradicting your greater good point here.

What EV owners want isn't necessarily good for everyone which is also something which needs to be understood.

Great that you agree that off peak charging of EVs would benefit everyone. You underline irrespective of price. Sadly this is the problem PP have. This will encourage on peak charging which is the very thing that is bad for all other customers. As stated by Ofgem.

Simplicity of a low single rate will indeed appeal to many EV owners which is not necessarily a good thing for PP customers as a whole. This is where this thread is missleading or missing the point.

We need an expert from PP to weigh in here because the single, low flat rate will begin to hurt non-EV owners soon enough unless they do something about it.

I'm by no means an expert, as you can tell, but to me the simplest and best solution for all is a lower off peak rate for charging EVs. Do you have a better idea?

Do you also agree that lowering the rate for off peak charging of EVs wouldn't mean price increases for everyone else?

You said my post inspired your poll. Do you see that your poll could be misinterpreted by members to think non-EV owners would have to subsidise overnight charging?
Look at what Pure Planet are actually saying in their own words to their own customer community...


We've one great value, simple, variable tariff, so you're always on our best rate. You pay no more than we pay for the energy you use.


If this is true and someone charges their car overnight (as Ofgem suggests and is widely accepted as best practice) then Pure planet is either overpaying or overcharging for electricity used at night. They are also actively encouraging EV owners to charge at the wrong time of day, which will have a negative effect for ALL customers.

We’ve seen other energy suppliers offer a special tariff for EV drivers. We’re not convinced that they’re the best, or fairest, options. The reason is that while the middle of the night rates may look good, you could end up paying higher rates at other times of day. So in other words, a night tariff for EVs in fine if you’re never at home during the day and only really use your house to charge your EV (!). But it’s not so good if you happen to use your house for living in, too.


I mean it could not be clearer from Pure Planet. How is this message helpful in any way to aid customer understanding as to what the best options are? Pure Planet is strongly suggesting they are against offering an EV friendly tariff.

Furthermore, they are promoting this by citing 3rd party research and news articles suggesting that sticking with a flat rate is good for all customers because it's what EV owners would prefer and technology improvements in fast charging will mean EV drivers will want to charge during peak times. This is widely accepted as being bad practice.

I know many of you probably think I am being negative, but I am just frustrated at Pure Planet in this respect because I think it is fairly hypocritical, unsustainable, misleading and already outdated.
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bobbin2u;35446:
In the meantime, I am switching Electricity supply to Octopus and leaving my Gas with BP, sorry PP.


Just checking that you realise PP don't have a gas-only tariff?
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good spot Stephen, I missed that ( I'm sure it didn't say PP first time I read it...).
Actually that raises an interesting question as to what happens when someone with both switches only their electric.
One for another thread then...
stephenrand;35448:
Just checking that you realise PP don't have a gas-only tariff?
stephenrand;35448:
Just checking that you realise PP don't have a gas-only tariff?


I did not know that. Thanks for pointing that out. I only asked to switch my electricity and PP haven't mentioned that.

Also, interesting how the gas is so much cheaper than everyone else's. As it is carbon offset you would expect it to be more expensive.

- - - Updated - - -

woz;35450:
All good then. I'm sure PP will read this.



It's a shame that it appears their message and information surrounding EV tariffs fits with the narrative of those who may have a vested interest not to promote the use of EVs.

Until I read that Q&A thread you pointed me to I didn't realise BP were a major stakeholder in Pure Planet and that Pure Planet purchased 100% of their electricity and gas from BP.

A more positive approach to off peak EV tariffs would feel like PP are more pro adoption of EV.

Sadly, there doesn't appear to be any change towards this anytime soon.
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bobbin2u;35459:


I didn't realise BP were a major stakeholder in Pure Planet and that Pure Planet purchased 100% of their electricity and gas from BP.



In the interests of accuracy, quote from Pure Planet's home page

"We're a private, independent company. BP holds a minority shareholding of just under 24%. As one of the largest energy brokers in the world, BP buys all the renewable electricity and carbon offset gas on behalf of our Members."

- - - Updated - - -

bobbin2u;35459:
Could this be the reason they are so anti EV tariff? I don't expect to see any change in their attitude towards this anytime soon.


Extract from a post in this thread
"I think an overnight off peak tariff will become inevitable..."

PP staff member response "Great input..."
Hi @bobbin2u

To be clear. Pure Planet's mission is to see the UK powered by 100% renewable energy.
We are not anti EV tariff.
It's possible that we will introduce an EV tariff. This thread was posted here in our community because we'd like to know what experiences EV drivers have, what else we might offer.
This is a discussion thread. It's posted to hear what our Members think.
I've already pointed you in the direction of our community guidelines.
Please read our acceptable use policy too.
stephenrand;35471:
In the interests of accuracy, quote from Pure Planet's home page

"We're a private, independent company. BP holds a minority shareholding of just under 24%. As one of the largest energy brokers in the world, BP buys all the renewable electricity and carbon offset gas on behalf of our Members."


That's precisely what I said. Thanks for confirming.

BP is a major stakeholder in PP and PP procures 100% of their energy from BP. Effectively we are all procuring through BP.
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The construct and intent of this thread has, in my opinion, been ruined. What a shame.

Marc;35473:
Hi @bobbin2u

To be clear. Pure Planet's mission is to see the UK powered by 100% renewable energy.
We are not anti EV tariff.
It's possible that we will introduce an EV tariff. This thread was posted here in our community because we'd like to know what experiences EV drivers have, what else we might offer.
This is a discussion thread. It's posted to hear what our Members think.
I've already pointed you in the direction of our community guidelines.
Please read our acceptable use policy too.
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Close the thread and the poll then Wozeeta? 🤷*♀️
Bev;35478:
Close the thread and the poll then Wozeeta?


We've got community guidelines to make sure that we can have discussions without making accusations or attacking other members.
Members who don't play fair will be warned, and then banned if they don't stop.

I've thought about closing this thread too @Bev but I'd prefer not to. Because then other Members won't be able to take part and express their feedback on what they'd like to see from Pure Planet in terms of EVs, tariffs, charging, etc etc.
Hey Everyone,

It's such a shame that this poll has been "hijacked" like this.
I have kept out of the discussions as I am not in a position to put forward a "reasoned" argument on this subject. However it hasn't stopped an input thread that is (in my opinion) so intransigent as to be almost "unbalanced" and totally destructive. We're all entitled to our own opinions regarding any subject...... but OMG this has become a poisoned chalice of a discussion.
Hi @Marc....I will fully understand if you decide to delete my post, I will not be offended.
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I think that would be the wrong call.
Bev;35478:
Close the thread and the poll then Wozeeta? ������*♀️
Good to hear. Thank you for clarifying. I have read the policy and have amended my post to remove anything that could be intercepted as offensive or perhaps inaccurate. I did originally mention BP as a major not a majority stakeholder.

Please go ahead and delete any posts that you think may be unhelpful to the discussion and the intended spirit of the discussion.

You have answered my main and original concern which was that Pure Planet were trying to steer the discussion away from an EV friendly tariff from the outset. Inferring it would most likely mean increased on peak costs for other customers.

I am pleased to hear that Pure Planet are not against an EV friendly tariff and will most likely introduce one. This is great to hear from the horses mouth so to speak.

Otherwise the service from PP has been excellent.

I am happy to leave the discussion also. Probably best.
bobbin2u;35484:


I am happy to leave the discussion also. Probably best.


Hi Bobbin2u,

Please don't leave the discussion as some of the things you say are very interesting, I just have a problem keeping up.

It is almost like the poll and the resulting discussion have morphed into 2 threads.

Just my thoughts,
X Driver
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hi bob
​It isn't so much cheaper than everyone else, there are some suppliers with cheaper gas rates.
bobbin2u;35459:

Also, interesting how the gas is so much cheaper than everyone else's. As it is carbon offset you would expect it to be more expensive.

I'm about to take delivery of an EV tomorrow. I have a basement/garden apartment in London which also makes it a challenge to charge outside my home as it would require the cable to be trailing on the sidewalk to get to the car, so unless I got some sort of anti-trip covering for the cable it's a lawsuit waiting to happen. I think if you were able to partner with a charging network with good reach, that shares your same renewable energy values so that we could benefit from a discounted charging tariff like Ecotricity does, that would be nice. Don't worry I'm not going anywhere but I'm trying to reduce the number of apps and services I need to sign up to in order to keep this car on the road. I'm already on two - Tesla and BP Chargemaster - and I haven't even got the car!
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If it's a Tesla don't you get free rapid charging?
DWC;35619:
I'm about to take delivery of an EV tomorrow. I have a basement/garden apartment in London which also makes it a challenge to charge outside my home as it would require the cable to be trailing on the sidewalk to get to the car, so unless I got some sort of anti-trip covering for the cable it's a lawsuit waiting to happen. I think if you were able to partner with a charging network with good reach, that shares your same renewable energy values so that we could benefit from a discounted charging tariff like Ecotricity does, that would be nice. Don't worry I'm not going anywhere but I'm trying to reduce the number of apps and services I need to sign up to in order to keep this car on the road. I'm already on two - Tesla and BP Chargemaster - and I haven't even got the car!
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Is the sidewalk the pavement? 😂😂😂🙃😉😉😉
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Only if you keep your feet in your trunks rather than your boots.
Bev;35658:
Is the sidewalk the pavement? ������������������������������������������
DWC;35619:
I think if you were able to partner with a charging network with good reach, that shares your same renewable energy values so that we could benefit from a discounted charging tariff like Ecotricity does, that would be nice. Don't worry I'm not going anywhere but I'm trying to reduce the number of apps and services I need to sign up to in order to keep this car on the road. I'm already on two - Tesla and BP Chargemaster - and I haven't even got the car!


It would make sense for Pure Planet to partner with BP Chrgemaster. BP are a major stakeholder in Pure Planet and already procure all the gas and electricity for Pure Planet, so a partnership here would make sense.

Problem is regular high-speed charging from BP Chargemaster's 150KW chargers and Tesla's V2 and V3 Superchargers is not good for the battery in your Tesla. Plus you have to pay a lot more than the cost of home charging for both options. Not the end of the world if you need a quick top up and still MUCH cheaper than Petrol/Diesel.

If you are a member of BP Chargemaster the rate drops from 40p/kWh (daylight robbery) to 20p/kWh, but it's still quite expensive. Perhaps Pure Planet's symbiosis with BP could result in cheaper rate (<20p/kWh) on the BP Chargemaster network. To access the current 'cheaper' 20p/kWh rate you need to pay a membership to BP, perhaps that could be free with a Pure Planet tariff?

Although charging with fast charges can be convenient when you need it, it isn't good for your car battery/pocket/the grid/other electricity customers/the planet. It is generally inconvenient for you too because your Tesla will do over 200 miles on a charge and you could be waking up every day to a full battery.

I know it's not relevant to you but BP Chargemaster also provide home charging installations however, they are VERY expensive compared with most other options. The prices look good because they will re-claim your £500 OLEV grant and already deduct that from their advertised cost. However, most reputable installers can claim the £500 government grant for those who have off-street parking. Perhaps if Pure Planet partnered here also, the cost of a home installation of a BP Chargemaster Homecharge unit could perhaps be brought into a reasonable price bracket for Pure Planet customers.

This doesn't help you with your home charging option though. This is the single biggest opportunity for Pure Planet as 40% of EV owners are projected not to have access to off-street parking (60% do though). If Pure Planet could come up with a solution here they would be able to access 100% of EV owners charging requirements. There are numerious ways they could tackle this, and they should be offerring a home charging solution and tariff to all their customers.

If I were you I would figure out a safe way to get a cable to your car while it's parked on the street. I see this a lot where I live. Someone would be hard pressed to sue you if it wasn't a hazzard and your local government will be reluctant to take legal action against you. I bet it's hard to guarantee you can park exactly outside your house everyday though eh?
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hi DWC
There's an interesting website HERE which might give you some ideas?
DWC;35619:
I'm about to take delivery of an EV tomorrow. I have a basement/garden apartment in London which also makes it a challenge to charge outside my home as it would require the cable to be trailing on the sidewalk to get to the car, so unless I got some sort of anti-trip covering for the cable it's a lawsuit waiting to happen. I think if you were able to partner with a charging network with good reach, that shares your same renewable energy values so that we could benefit from a discounted charging tariff like Ecotricity does, that would be nice. Don't worry I'm not going anywhere but I'm trying to reduce the number of apps and services I need to sign up to in order to keep this car on the road. I'm already on two - Tesla and BP Chargemaster - and I haven't even got the car!

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